Theos-Talk Archives (March 2002 Message tt00094)

Hi Adelasie, I hope you don't mind my intrusion into your talk with Daniel.
I certainly don't want to reopen the old "possible vs. probable"
discussion -- especially with Daniel.:)
I do wish to engage you with some comments below.

----- Original Message -----
From: "adelasie" <adelasie@surfari.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: Theos-World Dismissed with offhand general remarks


>
> Dear Daniel,
>
> It is a well-known facet of the study of occultism that those who
> doubt are prevented from recognizing the truth of that which they
> doubt.

Pardon my ignorance, but I wonder just how "well-known" this facet of the
study of occultism really is. It sounds self-serving to the interests of
would be occult leaders who would tell others what is and is not the truth
and even go so far as to explain to the "doubting Thomas" why he himself is
prevented from "recognizing the truth"

The presence of doubt in their minds prevents them from
> realizing the truth of evidence of the validity of that which they
> doubt. We can provide any amount of such evidence, as you are doing
> in a way which is very interesting to me, for instance, but none of
> this evidence has the power to change the mind of one who cherishes
> his doubting stance.

I wish here to offer another possibility for consideration. Is it possible
that one can become knowledgeable of the facts of this case or that case
concerning whatever subject is at hand without being required to either
believe or not believe (affirm or deny) the conclusions of another? Let us
take Larry's recounting of a personal experience with levitation. Might one
not be "baffled" (to use Steve's word) by such a description without passing
judgement one way or the other? Personally, I have found the methodology of
withholding judgement quite effective in helping me to remain open to more
evidence and additional viewpoints.

> You plead for a reasonable and fair debate, but it may prove
> impossible for this to happen, if those for whom you wish to open the
>
> door of understanding prefer to keep it closed.

But Adelasie, perhaps it is you who has closed the door of understanding.
The desire for closure is overwhelming.
The sense of 'knowing' is comfortable and safe. Often we are so relieved
to finally have this or that settled in our minds that we refuse to hear
additional contrary evidence.

They have their own
> reasons, which we may as well respect, since no efforts are likely to


"which we may as well respect" sounds a bit begrudging to me. Probably you
didn't intend it that way, but possibly you did, even unbeknownst to you.

> convince them until they too have some inner experience which leads
> them to try to peek behind the door of doubt and denial. Until they
> do, as you say yourself, all they have to do is doubt the reality of
> the phenomena you describe for their position to be validated, at
> least to themselves.

Have you peeked behind the door of your comfort zone lately? Has it
occurred to you that all you have to do is believe the reality of the
phenomena you describe for your position to be validated, at least for
yourself?

> I wonder why people who deny the validity of such phenomena concern
> themselves with it at all?

Why do people who affirm the validity of such phenomena concern themselves
with it at all?

Why do they try to prove that it is all
> fraud, when there are plenty of intelligent and responsible people
> who find it plausible and believable, and who do so with no motive of
>
> personal gain therefrom?

I don't think that responsible people are trying to prove that "it is all
fraud". Are you trying to prove that none of it is fraud? Probably not.
So if we enquire into which instance might be fraud and which might not be,
does that make us doubters and deniers? Where is our motive for personal
gain therefrom?

Can it be that these doubters have another
> motive, possibly hidden from themselves, of finding a crack in their
> own argument, a way to peek behind the self-imposed door of
> limitation in their own minds?

Can it be that these believers have another motive, possibly hidden from
themselves, of finding a crack in their own argument, a way to peek behind
the self-imposed limit of understanding in their own minds?

Unfortunately, this will not happen
> through debate and "scientific" methods. Our materialistic science is
>
> just not ready to allow for non-material proofs, evidently.
>
> But we can see, from his own words, that such an eminent and highly
> respected scientist as Einstein, was willing to open this door, and
> did not hide behind doubt and denial:

Actually Albert Einstein doubted the established science and religion of the
day and denied the efforts of others to condition his mind and thought
processes in either of these areas.

> The most beautiful
> and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of
> the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of
> religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and
> science. He who never had this experience seems to me,
> if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind
> anything that can be experienced there is a something
> that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and
> sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble
> reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am
> religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets
> and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image
> of the lofty structure of all that there is.
>
> from My Credo, by Albert Einstein

It also suffices me to "wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to
grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there
is."

> One day karma will provide the opportunity for all the doubters and
> deniers to see beyond their self-imposed ring pass not. Perhaps, when
>
> that time comes, your exhaustive work to provide evidence of that
> mystery referred to by Einstein will give them some clues about the
> immense world beyond, of which the material plane is only a pale
> reflection.

Yes, the immense world beyond is a mystery, of which the material plane is
only a pale reflection. Unfortunately for some, the illusion that the
mystery has finally been settled may have taken hold.

Best wishes,
Bill

> Best wishes,
> Adelasie