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Re: Theos-World Atma is Maya

Mar 03, 2002 02:06 PM
by leonmaurer

In a message dated 03/03/02 1:25:00 AM, writes:

>--- wrote:
>> But, if that is so, an "experience of ultimate reality" 
>> would require our "awareness," and since awareness 
>> is the root of consciousness, and consciousness is 
>> necessarily part of the sensory system -- then any 
>> experience of ultimate reality would also have to be 
>> considered as mayavic. 
>I don't follow you. 

Understandable as quoted... However, the statement, unfortunately taken out 
of context, was meant to be hypothetical -- based on your previous argument 
that atma was maya since it could be phenomenally experienced by the 
"sensory" system which is temporary or mayavic. In my view however the 
"awareness" aspect of consciousness is outside of the "sensory system" -- 
since the zero point, being coadunate with all other zero-laya-points, is one 
with the primal source and, therefore, eternal (in universality, if not in 
particularity). But this is a very subtle point -- which, apparently, fits 
in with the following.

>Consider this. We are told manas
>is seven-fold, as are the other seven "principles." 
>The lowest merges with kama, therefore is called
>kama-manas. Consciousness at this level involves
>representations which are sensory in character -
>visions, sounds, etc. Those subdivisions above the
>kama-manas level represent the other states such as
>swapna (dream state which does include sensory
>representations) and susipti, the state of dreamless
>sleep. Dreamless sleep by definition has no sensory
>contents, else it would not be dreamless. The
>experience of "ultimate reality" is said to be beyond
>even that, which is for sure devoid of sensory
>content. This is where we approach buddhi-manas, the
>seventh sub-principle of manas.
>The SD equates the sixth Theosophical principle with
>the "alaya" (the alaya vijnana of the Yogacara
>system). That is said to correspond in yogic practice
>with the pleasant state of mental quiescence
>experienced by some in meditation. The mind is
>completely quiet and all sensory experience has been
>left behind (i.e., the yogi is in pratyahara). Yet
>this is not enlightenment. Because it is so pleasant
>the practitioner may be tempted to stay there - thus
>it is called the "cave of devils." If the
>practitioner succeeds in pushing beyond that, he makes
>it to the amala vijnana, which in Theosophy becomes
>the "atma" (borrowing a name from the Adwaita Vedanta)
>and at that point there is enlightenment. There is no
>sensory content in this experience, though, and it
>cannot therefore be described in words (which refer to
>sensory representations of experience, after all.) 
>Having gone beyond words (sounds) and signs (visions)
>the yogi believes that he has penetrated to the
>unknowabke noumenon of all things, which is by
>definition not maya being non-phenomenal.
>This is not hair splitting, but what is actually

That's nice --since it verifies my also "not hair splitting" point (how can 
we split a point?:-) -- that atma is not a temporary phenomena or maya -- 
since it can be experienced by our zero-laya-point of pure "awareness" 
(which, in itself, is not a part of our "sensory" system or "temporary" 
material mechanisms, and is eternally beyond all phenomenal impermanency or 
illusion). Therefore, non phenomenal "atma," which can be so "experienced" 
directly as the highest enlightened reality, must also be eternal and not 

It could help, in this understanding, to equate "awareness" (as the eternal, 
fundamental aspect of the zero-point) to "Spirit"... And, equate its 
"spinergy" (of which "atma" is its first eternal, fundamental, all inclusive 
aspect) to "Matter"... Both of which are sleeping in pralaya and awake in 
manvantara. In this view, the zero point is the root of "consciousness," and 
its spinergy is the root of "information" or knowledge of matter<>energy 

Therefore, at the highest level of meditation or samadhi (enlightenment) -- 
both awareness (spirit) and matter (form) are drawn together as 
"zero-point-spinergy," and experienced as ONE fundamental reality. Thus 
"light," or "fullness," as equated with the eternal "atma" of "spinergy," is 
shown to be one with "darkness," or "emptiness," as equated with the 
"zero-laya-point" of eternal "awareness." Thus, as the Buddhists say, "All 
is Void" (Sunyata) -- which is BOTH "empty" and "full," or "one" and "many" 
-- as HPB clearly pointed out... And, thus, a "trinity" -- in fact. 

This also, incidentally, explains the first differentiation of Atma, as the 
initial triune "Monad" -- that includes within its outer encompassing field 
(analogously and correspondingly on both the Universal macrocosmic planes as 
well as the Manasic microcosmic planes) both the "coadunate but not 
consubstantial" fields of Buddhi and Manas (or Fohat and Mahat). 


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