Theos-Talk Archives (March 2002 Message tt00050)

Dear Mic:

As far as I can see we are always watching and discovering some
aspects of a constantly moving cross section of living matter as
it passes continually from the state we call the future into that
we call the past. We per contra think we are moving out of the
set forms we are familiar with in our "past" into and through
this same cross section into a "future" which is unknown to us.

There are quite evidently laws in place that take care of these
situations and of others.

Theosophy tries to get us to see that the ideal planes for
procedural evolution at all levels are set in place at every
Universal re-incarnation as well as at every re-incarnation of a
solar system or a world. Similar to the reincarnation of man
whereby the SOUL or causative AGENT -- the Independent and
deathless Mind is again and again clothes with a sentient body.

To presume that consciousness, intelligence and Mind are the
result of cerebral activity alone is the last resort of the
materialist scientist. who refuses to realize that in the laws
and rules of the life he observes in action, and forces and
powers that stem from two poles: 1. The SPIRITUAL and
all-intelligent, and 2. from the MATERIAL, or that which is being
shaped into independence of consciousness and thought by the
process of continual participation in every possible aspect of
the life process.

In ancient Hindu philosophy as exemplified in the BHAGAVAD GITA
one finds that the Universe is described as made up of three
great qualities (Gunas) which are in balance and in continual
motion. They called it the "Wheel of time." These are SATTVA
or Truth - spirit), 2. RAJAS ( or continual activity, motion,
and intelligence that ranges from the grossly selfish to the
altruism of the universalist), and 3, TAMA ( or inertial,
reluctance to move or to change -- a condition of primordial
matter). But to these a 4th and presiding entity was also to be
seen: the MIND -- as a universal power, a force and a causative
agent. It was universal as well as immortal and served to carry
the great lane of evolution forward for all that lives.

Thus spirit stimulates matter to a coherent living, and gradually
educes from it through memory of experience, the reactions that
are learned by living through experience. So there can be seen
stimulation, provocation, conditioned response, as well as such
individualization as is now recognized in the laws of
"indeterminacy" and "probability."

Obviously these in application fit into the grad theory of
Relativity as well as quantum theory and Superstrings of a
multidimensional and super sensitive reactive Universe,
intelligent in all its uncountable parts.

Looking at the matter overall, of can say that evidence for LAW
and laws is present. Also PLAN and many plans. BUILDERS AND
CONSTRUCTORS who work together in harmony. So it might be said
that the world our own bodies, and everything in Nature and the
Universe works toward a progressive harmony. And. And this is
also so to be KNOWN -- so there is the concept of the WISE, of
the KNOWERS and of their efforts to have mankind as individuals
learn something bout this and then direct their own lives
accordingly.

There is no question that this is a large concept to chew over.
But I have always felt that its logic made it more real than some
partial accounts with many unaccounted for pieces. Not am I a
pessimist and do not for a moment think that "fate" of some
undetermined kind predetermines our lives for good or bad. To me
these are al situational and deserve to be inquired into with a
view to being organized and their reason for existence
understood.

This of course presumes that there is such a thing as an eternal
and immortal atomic (?) level of consciousness and that in effect
the "atoms" [read MONADS] are the elements that always carry
forward evolution in cooperative shoals or hosts. It also
presumes that every such "atom" mirrors to some degree every
other "atom" as well as the "Whole" -- just as a portion of a
hologram would do for every other component and of its
wholeness -- in which it has its own individual part to play.
These three processes: spiritualization, materialization and
intellectualization (as a kind of bridge of comprehension) are
simultaneous and cooperative.

Again this is a metaphysical,. rather than a purely physical
explanation or statement.

H P B says much more on this in the 2nd Vol. of The SECRET
DOCTRINE -- and it takes a little time to ferret out those
applications and laws relevant to the continual recycling of
materials. But the information is there for those who have the
will and the patience to retrieve it. In any case it makes for
very interesting reading.

Look at it this way. Gaseous atoms combine to form molecules.
These eventually under the impact of heat, light and electricity
pass from the elemental to the condition of compounds and form
the primordial building blocks of the kind of forms in which we
see reactive intelligence progress more clearly. in say,
proteins, carbohydrates, etc....

Those are then used by the intelligent powers to provide
increasingly complex FORMS for higher aspects of living to
manifest -- our of various minerals and their crystals and
amorphous natures, we see plants, animals and finally the
superior animal-like body of a human being. But the progression
seems to stop there -- Theosophy says that is the beginning of
self-consciousness (or of an individualized Mind that can reflect
on itself)- - from that point on, the individual human progresses
on the basis of his increasing ability to think independently, to
observe, to trace the laws that nature has already in place and
thus to gradually make himself master of his own environment,
physically, emotionally, mentally and finally, SPIRITUALLY -- a
condition that has been described as SUPREME PERFECTION.

At that point the Human Mind is installed by more ancient humans
into those material forms and receptacles, so that the
self-perpetuating race of mankind may develop, using superior
animal bodies, but capable of developing thought to embrace any
aspect of evolution and any law or combination of laws in their
world and the universe.

And there is our present situation as the "Family of Man."

The only reason for our materialistic science to situate
intelligence in and on forms is because in geology and archeology
the sequence of form development as seen through fossils is seen.
And as time recedes, the nature of those fossils seems to show
ever more simple primitive forms. But this is not a proof. It
remains a conjecture.

To make matters worse it is presumed that intelligence arrives by
chance and fortuitously because of the highly complex interaction
in the brain of cells that react to external stimuli, engender
"behaviorism," and, presumably there is the addition (but this
is undefined conjecture also) of hereditary memories. In fact,
to the entirely materialist, the nature of intelligence and
consciousness are a mystery. So the word "chance" is introduced
to explain the inexplicable when backed to the wall of the WHY ?

Also the search for CAUSE is strictly avoided as materialism
affords no logical answers -- it resolves itself into a highly
descriptive account of observations in every department of
nature. The one fact that upsets all materialistic theories is
the question of the CAUSE, the FORCE, the POWER that underlies
observed phenomena.

All our investigations in every department of science results in
a detailed analysis of processes that are always set into motion
and are present there.

The alternative is the Theosophical "theory" -- or is it history?

But continual renewal and use of discards, points up one thing,
and that is that there is no dump or waste heap in nature --
everything gets reused. But, what are all the laws of such
reuse? Why was this instituted? What is the end result?

As a young science major in University I went through all this,
and decided there was more intelligence obviously present than
materialism alone could account for. I tried various
philosophical and religious systems seeking for something
coherent. Eventually after years of close study I became
convinced that theosophy in its entirely was closer to a complete
solution rather than anything else.

But this does not demand any blind acceptance. Everyone has to
prove this to themselves.

Best wishes, and come back for more any time....

I am putting come more thoughts below --.please see.


Dallas


======================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Mic Forster
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:30 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Theos-World Inertia


Dear Dallas,

Thank you for your comments. I sent the post on Inertia in the
hope of clarifying the relationship between decomposition,
energy, matter and mass that I am currently grappling with. Your
thoughts have helped somewhat.


Dallas wrote:


"As a matter of observation the decomposition of matter, seems
always to provide "food< for further growth. Consider the facts
of digestion in the human body, as an instance"

If we are to believe that mass/matter are just another form of
energy then decomposition would imply the recycling of energy
from one form into another. Look at a plant that converts energy
from the sun and through photosynthesis this is converted into
biomass. Eventually this biomass will be lost from the plant
through senesence, old age etc and now the soil organisms begin
to convert this into energy into forms which they then can use
for their own growth (or, in other words, to add biomass to
themselves).


In the process they mobilize other matter which the plant can
then absorb through the roots and utilize for its own purposes,
ie further growth. And so on this process continues for infinity.


Now in a hypothetical system where the above process occurs,
energy from the sun is continuously converted into biomass by a
plant.


On earth some of this energy would be lost as heat/respiration
etc but apart from the energy needed to convert the energy from
the sun into biomass nothing from the system is lost. That is so
long as there is energy coming from the sun a plant, and
everything reliant upon it, would just continue to grow and grow
and grow. There is an unlimited amount of nutrients, water etc
available to the system so, in essence, there is no limiting
factor to growth.


DTB	This is a conjecture and not proved. Nowhere has it been
conclusively demonstrated, or the Earth after many thousands of
years would present a single kind of plant life. Diversity would
have been eliminated long ago. What then, preserves "difference
?"


At this stage I would like to add that the plant cannot die, as a
whole, but individual components of it can. That is, leaves,
branches, roots etc die but the plant as a whole does not. Given
this, the plant cannot reproduce either.


DTB	This is not universally true as some plants and primitive
animals can do this.


The soil organisms can and do die and they can and do reproduce.


So, hopefully, I have set up a hypothetical inertial system where
this system is in continual motion where the external force is
the sun and there is no friction (ie, there are no limits to
growth).


DTB	To me, the external influence of the Sun serves as a
vivifying agent and perhaps a fueling agent. But WHY ?


Now let us say that another element miraculously appears in the
system and this is a human. This is not the modern destructive
human but rather a mere passive observer that sits and watches
this hypothetical inertial system in action. Although this human
is passive it is subject to the law of aging as we know it. So,
over time, this human slowly but surely
disintegrates/melts/decomposes/dissolves into the nothingness
whence it came. This human is in a continual motion of
decomposition where the external force acting on it is this
mysterious law of aging and there is no friction to prevent from
completely wasting away.


DTB	Since this is hypothetical the laws appear to be manipulated
by you the mental creator -- and the only thing they prove to me
is that you have that faculty. Again why the exercise ?


So, returning to my original question (at last you're probably
thinking!), would this be regarded as a form of inertia?


DTB INERTIA has its precedents. Where does the "matter for any
form come from? What are its constituent properties? How was
any motion imparted to it? Was any reaction imposed at its
commencement on its environment? What effect would that have
both externally and internally? There are too many "leaks" to
the situation. But apply the 3 QUALITIES ( gunas) as above. And
see if TAMA ( inertia) can really be separated from PURPOSE,
LAW, and the harmonious vibrations it emanated which, will affect
others. I say I known of nothing that lives entirely isolated.

Of course as "creator" mentally you can set up your own
parameters, but of what use is such an effort if practically
there are no applications? It is an intellectual exercise and
that seems to me to have limited value. It is better to commence
with actual reality, things as they are, and not setup impossible
situations -- at least, I do not grasp your purpose.

A final equation is beautiful in its symmetry and simplicity, but
it leaves no factor unquestioned or excluded.

=============================


Your insights are much appreciated.
Sincerely,


Michael Forster

===============================


dalval14@earthlink.net wrote:


Dear Mic:

Seems to me, for inertia to proceed, there has to always be an
initial impulse, a cause. A process may continue indefinitely
under the laws of inertia, providing there is absence of
friction -- but your illustrations appear to invoke the presence
of many more factors than are superficially apparent, or am I
wrong ?

As a matter of observation the decomposition of matter, seems
always to provide "food" for further growth. Consider the facts
of digestion in the human body, as an instance. How else do
foods and water provide new structural bases for bodily
maintenance and repair except through the innate intelligence of
billions of disparate cells, and who or what guides or instituted
that. Our of the apparent contamination of chyle new sustenance
is continually extracted.

All forces have cause and all trace back to an impulse starting
on some plane other than the physical. This is what the astral,
the pranic and the kamic divisions illustrate and imply. At
least that is how I understand it.



Best wishes,

Dallas

====================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Mic Forster

Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 12:58 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Inertia


Would the following be regarded as a form of inertia?

Litter on a forest floor decomposing at a certain rate relative
to the aging of a human body.

That is to say they are both in uniform motion though are moving
at different rates. Though an external force can be applied to
the human body to let it age and eventually decompose at the same
rate as litter on a forest floor. Hence decomposition is just
another word for aging and vice-versa.