Theos-Talk Archives (January 2002 Message tt00162)

Wednesday, January 09, 2002


What is MAYA, and What is involved and included
in it ?

Dear Friends:


To make myself as clear as possible, let me say that I try to
avoid speculations.

Yet, when I do, I try to identify it as such.

I try to present what I have gleaned and understand from the
Philosophy of THEOSOPHY. For this, I rely, almost exclusively,
on the early literature of Theosophical living Movement as
provided by H P B and her contemporaries. Later students have,
after the death of H P B's body, issued a sea of their
speculations. Those, when considered, ought to be compared (for
logic and consistency) with her record. I would identify her
writings as "original Theosophy."

But before we begin let me observe this:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Frankly, let's get off the "history" controversies. They merely
accentuate differences of opinion, and do not solve anything.
The past has been, and we cannot alter it. It is obvious that
individual views will differ, but no one "wins" in such matters.
The vies of each individual will remain theirs and only they can
alter them. No one "wins" in such situations.

What I do suggest is that if one ascertains the ethical and moral
basis for living and for conjoined evolution much more will be
achieved. This means we have to learn to differentiate the
"Doctrine of the Heart" from the "eye doctrine of literalism.

Can this be started?

--------------------------------------------------

Such statements as she makes, have been ascribed by her to her
own "Teachers" -- The Mahatmas, Adepts, and Gnyanis.

We may or may not "believe" that there exist Divine Men-minds who
have survived enormous periods of time, and whose work, is to be
"historians," "Witnesses on the Scene," of the movement of
cycles in time and "duration," as NATURE propels evolution again
and yet again. As I see it, we have here a condensed report from
the Observers in the Past, and that report covers an immense
period in years and Time.

Shall we reject it, or laugh at it without consideration? Do we
hold the short 300 to 400 year period of Scientific study and
theorizing about an unknown "past" -- using the gradual academic
independence from Church oversight, as superior to this ancient
"Report?" Or, shall we familiarize ourselves with it, and see
whether it has any merit? Each Scholar who publishes either
reports on his observations or adds his opinions and speculations
in regard to their causes. In any case, he or she exposes
themselves to peer review.

They (the Ancient Teachers and Tutors of Mankind) are those,
classified by the world as the prophets, and originators (or
reformers) of creeds, religions and civilizations in the past.

Why would there not be a central academy, a college, where a
record of events is preserved? H P B wrote of this in ISIS
UNVEILED, in Vol. II, pp 98 - 103, and she also refers at length
to this in the prefatory pages of both ISIS UNVEILED and SECRET
DOCTRINE. Why should Wise Men of the past, such as Krishna,
Buddha Gautama, Jesus of Nazareth, Pythagoras, Lao-Tse,
Confucius, Plato, Hermes, Zoroaster, Shankaracharya, Quetzal
Coatl, Paracelsus, Count St. Germain, Mesmer, H.P.Blavatsky, and
a host of others not continue t exist -- still very much alive ?
And why should they not continue Their work on other projects
where duty demands their presence? In most cases the record of
their reform, of their work and statements can be cross compared,
to verify a similarity or identity of expression. Is this not
what the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was established to do ? You might
ask me why humanity was seemingly abandoned by them to their own
devices. My answer would be to ask us all to observe how we
conduct academic study -- the student, from the earliest classes
in any education system is given latitude by their tutors to
educate themselves. Supervision is more intense at the primary
stages, but gradually slackens and disappears. In the matter of
Theosophy. Let me observe that 3 "Fundamental Principles" are
deemed significant by Mme. Blavatsky as a starting bas. She
outlines these in The SECRET DOCTRINE in Vol. 1, between pp. 14
to 19. However, if one remain skeptical of their own innate
immortality, much of the Theosophical reasoning and logic will
lose its force on a mind that has adopted the concept that the
life being lived is isolated, and physical death ends it all.

Let me place here a few statements by H P B that clarify what I
am trying to convey:

==========

"...the undersigned accepts for her views and
walk in life no authority dead or living, no system of philosophy
or religion but one--namely, the esoteric teachings of ethics and
philosophy of those she calls Masters--answers have to be given
strictly in accordance with these teachings...his first duty is
to be ever ready to help if he can, without stopping to
philosophize...there may be those who are starving for truth, in
every department of the science of nature, and who consequently
are yearning to learn the esoteric views about "cosmology, the
evolution of man and of the Universe." ... what I do believe in
is:

(1), the unbroken oral teachings revealed by living *divine* men
during the infancy of mankind to the elect among men;

(2), that it has reached us unaltered; and

(3), that the MASTERS are thoroughly versed in the science based
on such uninterrupted teaching.."
(Blavatsky: Collected Writings, Vol. 11, pages 466-467)


In 1877 in ISIS UNVEILED, H P B wrote:

"The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a
somewhat intimate acquaintance with Eastern Adepts and study of
their SCIENCE ... we came into contact with certain men, endowed
with such mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we
may truly designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their
instructions we lent a ready ear ... " ( ISIS I, v, vi)
Caps added.


"... FROM THE FIRST AGES OF MAN, THE FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF ALL
THAT WE ARE PERMITTED TO KNOW ON EARTH WAS IN THE SAFE KEEPING OF
THE ADEPTS of the sanctuary ... those guardians of the PRIMITIVE
DIVINE REVELATION, who had solved every problem that is within
the grasp of human intellect, were bound together by a universal
freemasonry of science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken
chain around the globe." ISIS I, 37-38, Caps added


"There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of
thoughtful and solitary students, who pass their lives in
obscurity, far from the rumors of the world, studying the great
problems of the physical and spiritual universes. They have their
SECRET RECORDS in which are preserved the fruits of the
scholastic labors of the LONG LINE of recluses whose successors
they are ... " ISIS I, 557. Caps added

"Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever
land or under whatever climate, ARE THE EXPRESSION OF THE SAME
IDENTICAL THOUGHTS, THE KEY TO WHICH IS IN THE ESOTERIC DOCTRINE
... And the clergy of every nation, though practicing rites and
ceremonies which may have differed externally, had evidently been
initiated into the same traditional mysteries which were taught
all over the world ..." ( ISIS I, 561)

=========[


May I, then, offer the following for consideration :


1) the ABSOLUTE refers to an eternal background. It is
neither manifested nor non-manifested, but both simultaneously
and essentially BEHIND those, which being dual contrasts come and
go like the great periods of time called Maha-Kalpas
(S D II 68-70)


2) Emerging from the ABSOLUTE periodically are periods of
manifestation, followed by periods of equal length of
non-manifestation. The "gaps" are contiguous when considered by
the embodied mind which is limited by its environment. But the
"embodied mind" is usually unable to say anything about periods
of "non-manifestation" as it is "asleep."


3) Our physical brain is only (we assume this) the seat of
our intellect during the time we are alive in this present body.


4) Our mental condition during the after-death period has
been narrated (or described) by Men-minds that have been through
this condition without loosing consciousness ( I would agree that
failing any memory at present in this brain-mind of mine as a
"personal" experience, this is accepted by me on the basis of its
reasonableness. I apply to it what I can of logic and agree it
appears reasonable -- but yet to be actually experiences AND
REMEMBERED).


5) similarly for the periods of non-manifestation, and the
concept of the ABSOLUTE as a changeless background [like
SPACE--which is always there -- whether it is "filled" with
physically manifesting atoms, or crammed with non-physical
atoms -- like the hypothetical "black matter" of astro-physics ]


6) Both Science and Theosophy hold the concept that the atoms
are Forces or Fields of Force, and their existence is not to be
limited or determined by any instrumentation so far devised. So
atoms ( and atomic sub-components) are demonstrable as necessary
concepts --- and some leave trace evidence of their presence --
but are not provable by our so-far devised instrumentation.


7) Compounds of all kinds perish. And Buddhism is
apparently correct in calling all "manifested" things "maya" or
illusions. Yet the Power or the Force that underlies the "atom"
or its qualities and properties show there is something actual,
real and permanent there -- and further implies that the laws of
its Nature exist and are integral to the general laws of "life"
we know of during the present period of manifestation. One would
conclude there are permanent, and transitory realities, and those
are perceived by beings who have equivalent "senses," and are
able to perceive, or deduce, their actuality.


8) As to corroborating statements, thoughts, concepts --
since Theosophy is not at all interested in being either
"pioneer," or the "first" to lay out any concept, if accepts such
proofs and corroboration as arises. And it adds this to its ever
growing store of proofs, demonstrations and conceptual
constructs.


THEOSOPHY is a historical record of the oldest as well as the
current conditions in all departments of Nature. It describes
the past and also the present Laws that operate in Nature and
show it to be a sensitive cooperative, which cares and supports
all of its milliards of components.

I states that each is an "immortal entity" -- a Force of
individual power, with the right to work and live where nature
has placed it. Each then, as seen by Theosophy, has a duty to
perform in its place, and all, taken together, work towards the
goal of ultimate Spiritual Perfection.

This goal is not for any one, but is common. It is the one that
draws all the many components, eventually back into a unity,
where they continue to work and assist others of their "brothers"
who face the path of progress they have mastered.

Theosophy as a living historical and ever-growing record,
welcomes all contributions. It to add or adjust such evidence as
is continuously presented, use questions and criticism as fuel
that will improve the records of the past, and add to them
present experience. It seeks to provide a basis for all
considerations and ideas, and reflecting always the information
so far adduced, it seeks to provide accuracy in response to all.

That is as I understand Theosophy to be.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=========================





-----Original Message-----
From: bri_mue [mailto:bri_mue@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 5:08 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Re: Atma is Maya

Dallas: "Something has to "bridge the gap"

Brigitte: Dallas: "..."

But Dallas, that means the universe is not forever if there are
gaps
and it becomes like a jig saw puzzle that seem more a construct
of the
intellect than anything else.

=============================================

DTB What is "behind" the Universe? What kind of pattern is
it organized on? How and When was that pattern established?
What kind of Cause or Source is conceivable? Supposing there was
in fact a series of UNIVERSES -- would not the time frames there
be different. We for instance cannot conceive of living at the
speed and pace of a "sub-atomic particle (or wave)", nor can we
conceive of our own SPIRITUAL LIVES being so extended in time
that we actually see the many revolutions of what we call today
the Stars and Galaxies of our surrounding AEther. We are very
limited to our own sphere of experience and watch the changes
around us. But our MINDS are capable of thinking in terms that
are vastly different from our present limits. Why is that ? Is
it experience, fancy, speculation, vague hopes
semi-materialized -- or is it indicative our Mind's capacity to
perceive on other planes of experience and transpose visions or
ideas ?

How does the "intellect" make "constructs? Why ? Is it under
the impulse of "desire and fancy? Or is their potentially an
actuality out there ? Azimov speculated freely on these matters,
why should you (or I) be debarred from comparing our
speculations? Are there any rules concerning this or previous
experiences we might be able to use?

========================================

Of course the intellect, just like the physical body, is afraid
of eternity, cannot comprehend it, why ? Because the brain, the
seat of the intellect and the physical body, are intended to
die, become compost just like the leaves of a three do each year,
and change (forget), in order to be forever.

=========================================

DTB You really ought to read the KEY TO THEOSOPHY. There
the difference between the physical brain mind -- the intellect,
and the PERMANENT THINKER is made clear. I think you are saying
in error that the physical body is afraid of "eternity." It
would rather, become "eternal." the problem is How? Yes the
physical atoms of the physical body are dispersed at death. But
we rarely ask how it is that they are assembled? Who, or what,
has the power to galvanize them into a coherent and useful
assemblage -- each atom, molecule, cell, and organ in the right
place for a ruling EGO or "intellect" t inhabit, educate, and
then use. We observe the process, but we have no full
explanation for its evolution, and actual being..

================================================



The big bang theory made famous since 1931 is in essence a bit
like the beginning/end "gap" universe a la Dallas, SD, making for
a
good "hall of mirrors" game.(sounds like you will have fun after
you die).


========================================================

DTB The "BIG BANG" needs a cause. Why not view it as though
it was a change the simultaneously occurred everywhere. ASLEEP
to AWAKE -- everything all at once. We have an example in
super-cooled liquids -- when the container is tapped there is
instantaneous and total crystallization. In The SECRET DOCTRINE
Vol. I this is explained. [ pp. 287, 268, 238 ] The "Hall of
Mirrors" (which I have seen) is a great illustration. Who turns
on the light after the change of scenery? It requires a HUMAN
MIND to do this at the right time.

Theosophical metaphysics conceives of a number of eternals that
function and are consciously aware during th great PRALAYA when
the average consciousness is dormant and at rest. But reading
The SECRET DOCTRINE you will notice this. A good INDEX to The
SECRET DOCTRINE is very helpful AFTER one has read and studied
it.

==========================================

In fact the inventor of the big bang theory was a Belgian priest
called P.G. Lemaitre, and I suspect he might have been
subconsciously influenced by the bible that as is known has a
creation myth which in character doesn't differ that much from
Blavatsky's SD.

In 1929 on the other hand Fritz Zwicky who taught Astro Physics
at the University of Pasadena (no not Perucker's place) already
laid
the foundation for the now widely accepted scientific knowledge
that the Universe is without beginning and end, more like the
Buddhist
world view that doesn't need a personal God (make that" God's" in
the SD) to talk away beginnings and endings plus gaps in
between.

=====================================

DTB Perhaps he culled the idea from The SECRET DOCTRINE --
but that does not matter as neither "God" nor "Gods" ever act
arbitrarily. If They are indeed the ultimate expression we can
conceive of a SUPREME SPIRITUAL ONENESS that UNITES lT into a
WHOLE, then, the question of identity will never be resolved by
personal names or designations. They are unimportant. What does
emerge from such a concept is the Theosophical description of the
UNIVERSAL MONAD and from it in infinite division the ocean of
MONADS which fill all space. It is their evolution that is
significant.

I have puzzled over an ancient verse, you will find it in SECRET
DOCTRINE II 176 at the top: "Desire first arose in IT , that
was the primal germ of mind...." I think it is relevant to this
kind of research, although the solution will not be rapid. It
tends to take one out of the "personality" limitations of
mortality, into the realm (or plane if one pleases) of causes and
the finer forces of energy which underlie physical constructs. A
whole fresh realm of discovery, and "speculation."

Frankly, let's get off the "history" controversies. They merely
accentuate differences of opinion, and do not solve anything.
The past has been, and we cannot alter it. It is obvious that
individual views will differ, but no one "wins" in such matters.
The vies of each individual will remain theirs and only they can
alter them. No one "wins" in such situations.
What I do suggest is that if one ascertains the ethical and moral
basis for living and for conjoined evolution much more will be
achieved. This means we have to learn to differentiate the
"Doctrine of the Heart" from the "eye doctrine of literalism.

Can this be started?

Best wishes,

Dallas

===================================



Brigitte

--- In theos-talk@y..., <dalval14@e...> wrote:
> Wednesday, January 09, 2002
>
> Dear J---y:
>
> Of course you are correct. The proviso causing an exception is
> the visualization of TIME. DURATION is hard to deal with, when
> our experience in the here and now is so limited and TIME
appears
> like a thief to steal our "time" away.
>
> I sure do get it:
>
> When limited in any ONE MANIFESTATION ( Manvantara or
> Maha-Manvantara) all DIFFERENTIATIONS ARE MAYAVIC.
>
> H.P.Blavatsky in The SECRET DOCTRINE says: S D I 54-5 and
> also in the footnote fn (54)
>
> "The idea that things can cease to exist and still BE, is a
> fundamental one in eastern Psychology. Under this apparent
> contradiction in terms, there rests a fact of Nature to realise
> which in the mind, rather than to argue about words, is the
> important thing....[ here H P B uses the question as to whether
> the gases H and O are abolished when H2O water is formed is
> discussed] ..."existence as water may be said to be, for O and
> H, a state of Non-being which is "more real being" than their
> existence as gases; and it may faintly symbolize conditions of
> the Universe when it goes to sleep or ceases to be, during the
> "Nights of Brahma"- to awaken or reappear again, when the dawn
of
> the new Manvantara recalls it to what we call existence."
>
> "Hence non-being is "ABSOLUTE Being," in esoteric philosophy.
In
> the tenets of the latter even Adi-Budha (first or primeval
> wisdom) is, WHILE MANIFESTED, IN ONE SENSE an illusion, Maya,
> since all the gods, including Brahma, have to die at the end of
> the "Age of Brahma;" the abstraction called PARABRAHM
> alone--whether at we call if Ensoph, or Herbert Spencer's
> Unknowable--being "the One Absolute" Reality. The One
secondless
> Existence is ADWAITA, "Without a Second," and all the rest is
> Maya, teaches the Adwaita philosophy." S D I 54 fn. [ also
S
> D I 265 ]
>
> I was sure you knew this reference and this is what I have been
> writing about all this time. Something has to "bridge the gap"
> between periods of manifestation? Not physical but ENERGY,
FORCE
> modified by LIVING EXPERIENCE -- INDIVIDUALITY to me, survives.
> So does H P B say this in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE
> VISHISTADVAITA. THEOSOPHIST, Jan, 1886 ( H P B Articles III p
> 265.)
>
> But I do not find any statement (have you one ?) which says
ATMA
> is Maya.
>
> [ S D I p. 570-1 says ATMA alone remains]
>
> [S D I p 193 top, it states that ATMAN passes into NON-BEING,
> which is absolute Being...the purely Nirvanic state is a
passage
> of spirit back to the ideal abstraction of Be-ness which has no
> return to the plane on which our Universe is accomplishing its
> cycle."]
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
> CUT