Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00386)

<<<Dear Gerry S 
I do not recommend that H P B be deified. Neither did she. Some who do not think do that and it is to their detriment.>>>

Dear Dallas, you have a right to make Theosophy your religion if you want to. I just wish you could be more honest about it.


<<<What I do recommend, and so did she, is that those who are interested in THEOSOPHY study it. Otherwise there is a lot of desultory and pointless talk that gets no anywhere.>>>

Who on this list has NOT studied it? This argument of yours is out in left field, Dallas. You seem to be recommending is that we all have to interpret Blavatsky the same way that you do, and yet you can't seem to even admit that you are making your own interpretation in the first place.


<<<My point is simply: State the facts. Do not speculate.>>>

We ARE stating the facts, and I personally don't know a single person on this list who "speculates." How do you define speculation? (anything you don't agree with?)


<<<Why assume that people cannot think ?>>>

This is a great line coming from you. You have countlessly insulted my intelligence, Dallas. And the above is just another one in a long list.



<<<What does H P B's "personality" have to do with the Message, the philosophy, the ethics of THEOSOPHY ?>>>

On this one, Dallas, we are in perfect agreement.



<<<If Theosophy is untrue then why should she have put herself through the life-killing strains that she did ? Can you imagine 16 years of great strain, continuous pain in a body that was ill most of the time ?>>>

This line of argument is not psychologically sound. People put themselves through suffering for all sorts of crazy rationalizations.


<<<I ask again of all of us: Have we the knowledge, and the capacity to write an ISIS UNVEILED or a SECRET DOCTRINE ? >>>

You are asking the wrong question, Dallas. Writing books is a manas function and has NOTHING to do with spirituality. Anyone who has a reasonably high IQ can research information and write books on it.



<<<<If not, and if we cannot yet answer simple questions on theosophical fundamentals and tenets (with adequate supporting references to
assist the inquirer), then we have no business criticizing her on flimsy hearsay. We have no business trying to support our lack of initiative by lending our ears to gossip mongers and character destroyers. And it is precisely this that I protest.>>>

Your protests suggest to me that you may have a deep-seated fear that perhaps 'they' are right and you are wrong, so therefore it would be best if 'they' shut up. This is the classical reasoning of fundamentalists everywhere. Fundamentalism is a house built on sand, and things that shake it up must be silenced. My own thinking, Dallas, is that I don't care if anyone criticizes Theosophy or Blavatsky at all, or in any manner, nor am I affected by "gossip mongers." I am pretty firm in my belief-system and worldview so that I can tolerate it. 


<<<One thing is quite clear: those who support gossipers and character distorters are themselves NOT students of THEOSOPHY,>>

Well, you first set yourself up as a judge of what is gossip and what is speculation and what is fact, and then you set yourself up as a judge of Theosophical students. Very interesting... (and you still claim that you are not a fundamentalist???) I hope I am just misunderstanding you here.



<<<If they are historians, and have the documents in front of them, then they know what is true and what is questionable, and also, what is false. >>>

Oh I think that they do have those documents, and most of them have been made public today. But aren't historians also supposed to fill in gaps and to try to explain documents or 'facts' that conflict? There is a lot of conflicting documentation when it comes to Theosophical history (just like there is conflicting teaching in Blavatsky's own writings). And so, a good historian will make reasoned interpretations of what likely happened. And possibly even make intelligent explanations of WHY the conflicts occurred. I thought that was their job???


<<<We are not here, on this "List," as I understand it, to study the life of H P B and certainly not the inaccuracies of fact, and the many unfounded innuendos of some recent contributors. >>>

Well, I for one, hope we are here to do more than throw quotes around and pretend we understand them.


<<<The sensation caused and the stir made, do not constitute proof or even discord. they simply demonstrate that those concerned have not studied all the facts. They are only partially informed.>>>>

Are you setting yourself up as God who knows all the facts? Well, Dallas, even God doesn't know all the facts. According to Relativity theory, Quantum theory, and Chaos theory, NO ONE KNOWS ALL THE FACTS, and never will. Every worldview is a speculation. Even yours.


<<<<It is perfectly clear to me that there has been failure to study IN SEQUENCE the documents that relate to the History of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- and there are a number of students that have a complete set. They do not need to be told -- they KNOW.>>>>

Dallas, as much as I like you, I have to say, in all honesty, that the above is pure bullshit. Not a single solitary persons KNOWS. I started to read your online "history" and it is intermixed with so much subjective venom and hatred and misunderstanding that I could not continue reading it. History, as a discipline, is a lot of speculation around a few known facts. That is what it is, and why I am sceptical about it. But sometimes it can be interesting and even fun.


<<<Are, or are we not at the core center of our being immortal SPIRIT/SOULS?>>>

No. Our immortal core is neither matter nor spirt.


<<<Do we live only one short, limited and relatively fruitless and purposeless life, or do we reincarnate?>>>

No. The spiritual part reincarnates, not "us."


<<<Is the concept of the "ETERNAL PILGRIM" novel, real, or foolish ?>>>

It is maya. Is maya real or foolish?


<<Do we have free-will?>>>

Yes, but it is very restricted.


<<<What about the influence of family, religion, country, race? How much power do they have ?>>>

Probably more than you think.


<<<What is "Matter ?" [ All definitions are welcome. providing they give a CAUSE. ]>>>

There is no CAUSE to matter, nor is there a CAUSE to spirt, which is the same thing.


<<<How is it (matter) distinguished from "Force," or "Power ?">>>

There is no distinction whatever.


<<<What and how are limits set to masses of matter?>>>

Only those that we have imposed.


<<<<What is LAW. Is KARMA a fact?>>>

The LAW is that karma is maya.


<<<Does NATURE provide the patterns and the layout for all forms and their development ?>>>

Nature is collective humanity.


<<<How shall we distinguish between "Good," and "evil ?">>>

All such distinctions are mental gynmastics having no reality.


<<<What is the goal of human life?>>>

To express itself.


<<<Is it possible to become perfect in knowledge and wisdom without being also ethically rect ?>>>

It is NOT possible for any human being to be perfect in anything.

OK, so we differ on how we interpret Theosophy. Can't we learn to live with that? Have a nice day.

Jerry S.
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