Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00176)

Tuesday, December 11, 2001


Re: Pronunciation and LINGUISTIC VARIANTS. The “EYE” vs. the
“HEART” Doctrines.

Occidental “Orientalism” vs. resident ORIENTAL
ORIENTALISM.

Dear Friend Ian:


May I break in here? having traveled the “East” for over 35 years I have
had some first-hand experience with the use of terms and their changes in
pronunciation caused by age and local vernacular usages.

I am sure you have great experience, but I would find it for myself
hazardous to make statements that are definitive in this area of research,
I have found too often that a few years or a few miles of difference
produces either a new sounding system (based on the same old antique base)
or a reconciliation with previously noted differences. So I avoid being
definitive, and thus being “shot down” by the next savant who reviews my
writing. We are all seeking to understand, and we all need cooperative help
and advice. No one knows “it all,” unless he or she is an initiated Master
of Wisdom -- and those are not easily met, thought their traces are many.

Please see notes below:

Dallas

==============================

-----Original Message-----
From: IHarling
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:50 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Response To Daniel


Hi again. Now I'm really confused.



Article by HPB, 1887: "Classification of 'Principles' "
"For the Taraka Raj-Yoga classification is again three upadhis, the Atma
being the fourth principle, and no upadhi, of course, as it is one with
Parabrahm."

================================================


DTB See S D I 157-8 There is ONE PRINCIPLE: ATMA and 6
vehicles or Upadhis.

Symbol: Solomon’s seal -- 2
interlaced Triangles.

==================================


IAN
Taraka Yoga is one type of discipline - Raja Yoga is another. There is no
Taraka Raj-Yoga. They bear hardly any relationship to each other and can't
be called a 'classification' in any sense.


DTB References S D I 157-8, ii 592-3fn, 603

Relation to Budha (wisdom) S D II 45, 138, 456 498 [ Tara or
Taraka ]
Initiation by Soma SECRET DOCTRINE I 499
“War” S D i 418; II 45, 63, 384fn, 407-500
Kartikeyya vanquished S D II 382, 610,

==========================================


DTB Dare we say, then that H P B and the Masters mislead us? I, for
one, would not. The Indian Brahmins I know (35 years of acquaintance in
India) never questioned this designation in the S D. I am curious as to
your base for this statement. Modern Orientalism in attempting to analyse
using languages they are not actually familiar with, tend to separate rather
than aggregate information. This leads to compounded confusion.

=========================================

IAN
Dzyan Stanzas is also suggested to be translated to - Zen Texts or Texts of
Transformation. Zen (Dzyan, Dzan, Dzen) is an allegorical language - used by
initiated Buddhists - and also Sufis in Persia and elsewhere.


==================================

DTB The words we put into our alphabet correspond to the Sanskrit GNYAN
or GNYANA -- DHYAN. As far as I was able to ascertain, the pronunciation in
Bengal and the sub-Himalayan area, and thence Into Tibet, Mongolia, China,
Korea, and Japan goes to DZYAN and DZEN, DJEN, then to CHEN, CHAN, CHANA,
etc… [ The hard DJ changes to the gentler CH ]

That does not make me “right.” It only says that from tongue to tongue
there are variants. It is the IDEAS that are important and not the physical
pronunciation. These words signify to the seekers for truth WISDOM. and
indicate its traces in various parts of the world at various periods, near
and far remote.

===============================

IAN
There is no allegorical language used by initiated Buddhists. Nor, as
stated above, is Zen is an allegorical language. The word Zen is Japanese
and is derived from the Chinese word "Chan", which is a short form for
"Chana", and which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word "Dhyana", which
means meditation. There is no word Dzyan, Dzan or Dzen anywhere except in
Theosophy, not in Sanskrit or Tibetan. Can anyone tell me any source for
this term outside of Theosophy?

=========================================

dtb Among the Zoroastrians the word ZEN or ZEND is common and means
there WISDOM or that derived from WISDOM ,-- this may have also traveled to
China, Korea and to Japan.


DTB See above. If one travels and lives with the people and their
“wise-men” in the vast area stretching from Central Asia through Turkestan
to Iran, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet, Nepal, India, Burma,
China, Indonesia, etc.. the linguistic variants are great but historically
as the basic IDEAS were exchanged and transferred the pronunciations changed
to suit the new environment. This could be checked even today by a
traveller who made successive contacts with philosophers and paleolinguists
in those areas.

In my search I have found that It is not the modern academies and modern
Orientalist that help in these matters, but the Native Savants and the
guardians of the traditions of their country’s lore who can help.

Unanimously, one will find that Theosophy provides a common key to
discussion and understanding. One has to be truly familiar with ISIS
UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE .

=====================================

IAN
Some Buddhist texts are written with 'Veiled Intent', but this isn't a
language. It can be understood by anyone and simply means that any text
written in this way will only be fully understandable once you have enough
experience in place. This is simply a result of the terms used within these
texts - if you haven't directly experienced then you will only understand
part of the text in the same way that if you had never sneezed before and I
started writing about the content and nature of sneezes you wouldn't
understand.

Also, the way the above is written implies that it there are common
terms/language that are used in Buddhism and Sufi texts when there are none.
Some ideas remain the same, as they obviously should, but there is no common
language between the two.

There are no 'Zen Texts of Transformation'.

Kind regards,
Ian



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]