Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00052)

Dear Tony:

Thanks -- let me add some notes to the body of your text below.

Dal

================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 6:06 PM
To:
Subject: RE: WISDOM -- MANIFEST AND NON-MANIFEST Stanza III Sloka
7 part 'a' - PART II

-----------------------------------------------

TONY
Dear Dallas

Thanks for the mail, yes it does help.

Are you suggesting that the Mahatmas "shut out the above," as
meaning they
become Nirmanakayas rather than entering Nirvana?

=======================================

DTB	That is what Theosophy suggests. It is the sacrifice of
personal spiritual bliss for an immense period (Dharmakaya and
Sambhogakaya vestures -- see TRIKAYA in The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY
. p. 338, S D II 79 bottom of the page - to p. 80; Voice of
the Silence pp 35-6, 69, 77-8, )

Apparently since as far back as the beginning of time (as we
conceive it) those who become wise through self-effort eliminate
any sense of personal "reward." Hence whenever they reach the
next plateau of wisdom (Initiation into the secrets of Nature as
a free-choosing MIND) -- in this case Nirmanakaya -- they remain
voluntarily as assistants and helpers in some aspect or another
of Nature's effort to enlighten there whole "mass of matter."

To do this on a volunteer basis is a very large obstacle
(PSYCHOLOGICALLY) to overcome. Impersonalization of our personal
selves seems an enormous task -- develops vigilance and attention
to every phase of our conscious living.

============================================

TONY
You say we should be practicing *brotherhood* at the same time as
killing
out our lower selves, paralysing them, turning them into cyphers.

============================================

DTB	Not quite. The lower self is also Monadic. It needs to
change its orientation, from selfish to universal sensitivity.
When it sees the necessity far this as a UNIVERSAL PROCESS of
perfection, then it sets its shoulder to the wheel and works at
it. We all know this It is plain in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE
77-8. The Lower Self will never be eliminated but only self-
transformed. It is the isolation of selfishness that has to be
terminated and a broad, generous and universal attitude towards
all living things has to be adopted as a basis for our continued
living. Change "take" to "give." All the time. We won't
suffer. Nature is always generous and sees to the support of her
many SUPPORTERS.

===============================

TONY
A practical exercise to span numerous lifetimes. . . thus leading
to "without
distinction of caste, colour, race or creed." *Universal
Brotherhood* IS,
whether we like it or not. The first object of the Theosophical
Society
begins: "1. To form the nucleus . . . of Man". Unfolding our
inner
potential (that doesn't sounds right, is building higher Manas
better?),

=====================================

DTB	If we start from the top -- with the self-assertion that we
are fundamentally divine, and all the rest of the 6 principles
are but vesture, cloaks, giving progressive linkage from the
DIVINE ATMIC RAY down to the gross substance of our physical
bodies and brains, we will find it easier. Also we ought to look
at the linkage as a succession of Monadic progressions.

There is not only the INDIVIDUAL MONAD which is the base for you
and for me, etc., but there are all the Monads of lesser
experience, which serve each in its own way to help build the
enormous Nidana -- a veritable pyramid between the INDIVIDUAL
MONAD WE ARE and the many Monads that form our vestures.

The ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is truly US at the Atmic level,
permeates and "descends" so to say, to the lowest, to our brains,
hands and feet. It gives them the basis of their
"self-identity," "life," and ability to perceive and react. At
all levels, we, the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is active, aware, and as
the "Lower Self" develops, serves as its tutor and friend ( see
TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE pp 66 -76) so that it also
may become the Nirmanakaya -- wise and powerful for general
"good."

One ought to extract from the S D the quotes on Nirmanakayas and
Monads and compare them.

Our "Higher Manas" is part of the divine immortal MONAD -- as I
have repeatedly posted. it is midway (always) between the SPIRIT
(ATMA) on one side, and the MATTER (BUDDHI) of the other. it is
impartial. I ask myself where it comes from and the only answer
I get is that it represents that aspect of the ABSOLUTE that is
the infinite, impartial PERCEIVER -- and its pervades all of the
lower "principles." ( S D I 157, 181, II 596 ).

===================================

TONY
helps us to work on killing out our desires and passions; and
vice versa:
killing our desires and passions helps in forming higher Manas.
They
compliment each other.

=====================================

DTB	"Killing" is a word used in the Voice and by the Buddha in
His teachings to show our Lower Mind how imperative is the need
to escape the bonds and clutches of our PERSONAL KAMIC PRINCIPLE.
It is not that KAMA is wrong. It is that in this present context
it has detached itself from its friend and "father" the HIGHER
MANAS ( Buddhi-Manas) and tried to develop on its own without
the benefit of the wider survey of potential results that only
the divine Higher Mind can provide. [ see KAMADEVA in The
THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY to see what the Divine Kama is and does
p. 170-1, also in SECRET DOCTRINE II p. 176, 578-9 ]

Look at it this way: A passion or a vice is a virtue that has
been exaggerated. Once that the Mind and wisdom work to get the
Kamic-nature to see the results of the exaggeration, it will
DESIRE to regulate itself and accept the cooperative friendship,
the greater vision and power of the Buddhi-Manas. We all have
these powers and potencies inside us already. We need to awaken
our "lower mind" to their existence and logical reasonableness to
get them going.

========================================.


You write:
<<<As to the 3 LOGOI: (as I see it) We have:


1. Unmanifested LOGOS. Precursor as a concept to
"manifesting."

2. Manifesting LOGOS. Transition out of the
ABSOLUTENESS into the
MANIFESTED

3. Manifested LOGOS. OUR UNIVERSE IN ALL ITS VASTNESS
AND
VARIETY.>>>

Don't you feel that there should be another one?

Manifested LOGOS. OUR UNIVERSE IN ALL ITS VASTNESS AND
VARIETY. looks as if it should be numbered 4.

1. Neither unmanifest nor manifest
2. Unmanifest
3. "Trembling." Not quite manifest...perhaps like the dawn.
4. Manifest

This would make 2, 3, and 4 the Logoi.
Number 1 (or should it be zero) the Absolute . . .
Presumably the arupa are in the realm of the unmanifest.

====================================

DTB	I would not disagree. But if we attribute to the
ABSOLUTENESS any limitation such as a WORD, vibration, or LOGOS,
verbum, resonance, mantram, etc. we automatically degrade it from
its non-manifested aloofness as an indescribable ROOT-BASE.

To have a LOGOS one needs an idea, before the word is framed. and
to frame a word at all, we need a vibrating matter of some kind
and a medium through which the vibration will run, and then
finally a receptor to which the vibration will mean something --
so I would rather keep the idea that the ABSOLUTE is NOT a
:LOGOS."

But I am also unable to frame a proper sequence of transfer
between the NON-MANIFEST EVER ETERNAL BACKGROUND and its
periodical manifestations. [ There indeed must be a "Laya
center" at this point of transfer -- a true barrier to anything
that rises from the Manifested material base of thought towards
the Supernal -- THE ONE CAUSELESS CAUSE. ]

But even this concept demands a perception of time and a
continuation of individuality, which the Maha-Pralaya cannot wipe
out. Karma rules and is somehow related to KAMADEVA the pure
unmanifest DESIRE - PRINCIPLE that might be the cause of the
LOGOI in some way. And yet behind all those there is the
indefinable CAUSELESS CAUSE of all CAUSES.

I came a long time ago to the conclusion that a Maha-Pralaya is
only an idea, a concept, as there can never be a "time" when the
whole vast singularity the U N I V E R S E is placed into
rest. DURATION is forever, and our minds demand the limits an
barriers of space, time and matter. It won't work. Hence there
is always portions of the W H O L E that are resting and other
portions that are active -- like the symbol the Koreans use for
their flag -- the Yang-Yin.

The only hints I have seen of its potential three-fold nature are
implied in "the opened eye of the Dangma" ( S D I 27 ) which
are not subject to Maha-pralaya "rest."

Best wishes,

as always,

Dal

========================


Tony



-----Original Message-----
From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: 1 December 2001 6:50 pm
To: sd@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-sd] RE: WISDOM -- MANIFEST AND NON-MANIFEST Stanza
III
Sloka 7 part 'a' - PART II


Saturday, December 01, 2001


Dear Tony:

Re: WISDOM manifest and non-manifest

cut


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