Theos-Talk Archives (August 2001 Message tt00242)

Friday, August 24, 2001


Re: Clones

Dear Friend :


What I am going to say here is speculation based on some
fundamental Theosophical concepts, which I think apply:

1. Cloning is handling a duplication from the conclusions
arrived at by scientists who work using materialistic reasoning
and logic. They know little if anything of the ASTRAL BODY or
the causes that would form an astral body and would attract the
physical molecules to aggregate around it [ see PSYCHIC AND
NOETIC ACTION by H P B "Lucifer" Oct. Nov. 1890 (U L T ) H P B
Articles II p. 7 to 27 ]

2. While some of the astral foundation for the physical is
involved I do not think that
the higher principles :

Astral - the electro-magnetic lattice form around which the
physical molecules aggregate,
As there seem to be some defect in those,

Pranic - vitality and there are some reports of a rapid "aging"
process the reason for which is not yet determined, and

Kamic - instinct, animal consciousness, mainly the desires and
passions, and

The "higher principles" do not seem to be involved:

Manasic - Intelligence, reasoning -- as Kama-Manas, and

Buddhi - Wisdom or Buddhi-Manas, and, finally

Atma - the ray of the Universal SPIRIT.

I do not think that these are fully involved in any
process of cloning.

The link between the Lower and the Higher Manas is apparently
missing.

In other words animal forms may be produced, but the human form
if produced, will not have a connection with the HIGHER MANAS and
the 3 Superior Human principles (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS).

As I say, this is purely speculation on my part, and this remains
to be proved in the future.

I would say that some of the lower aspects are present in some
way (but exactly what this is remains unclear), because they are
attracted and aggregated to the physical side, they have to be
there, either wholly or partly. But the 3 Higher Principles, the
INDIVIDUAL aspects of CONSCIOUSNESS would not be there.

In ISIS UNVEILED the HOMUNCULI of Paracelsus are mentioned and to
me some of the characteristics ascribed to them appear to relate
to the present "CLONES."


Here are some references from which I derive what I say:

[ISIS UNVEILED Vol. I 465, 485; II 33-4;

The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, 204 [Mandragora, or Mandrake] 105
[Dudaim "Lucifer 14, p.3];

H P B Articles Vol. II (U L T) p. 262 [H P B's footnote to THE
LIFE PRINCIPLE. "Lucifer" March 1888], 337 [ANIMATED STATUES,
"THEOSOPHIST," Nov. 1886];

S D i 345; S D II 120-1, 341-5, 349, 376, ]

Under DUDAIM in the T. THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY (H P B) "W.W.W."
comments that "it has been used in many forms of black magic." H
P B relates this to the union of Higher and Lower Manas in terms
of human consciousness. (ISIS UNVEILED I 465)


You will notice that the consciousness with which these 'clones
(?)' were reported to have been endowed, was of a low order --
not human in the sense of those children born in the normal
Karmic way by the union of actual parents -- I must admit that
this remains for me a mystery.

And a great deal may be hidden in the non-reported experiments
made by us when we were incarnated ages ago in the
"Atlanteans" -- and for which there is no actual written or
accessible continuity. Their "sin" is spoken of in the S D but
not well defined. And what little is said there is reported to
relate to the origination of the anthropoid apes. The modern
"humonkeys" may be a reflection under Karma to this original
materialistic experimentation done by us and our science way back
in time. It is curiosity and has no real value as far as I can
see. It certainly does not appear to help on the total
evolutionary scheme.

I believe it has something to do with reproduction and
generation, and perhaps we are at present passing through some
"materialistic" phase that corresponds to that.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=================



-----Original Message-----
From: ramadoss@infohwy.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:17 PM
To:
Subject: Some more on Cloning

Friends:

Here is some info from www.globalchange.com.

>From a theosophical point of view, many questions raise. What
are the
inner composition of the cloned bodies and what is the future
spiritual
growth progression etc.

MKR

---------------


There could be one benefit of the human to cows egg transfers.
Some people
are very uneasy about creating a human embryo and then
dismembering it,
however early the stage, to obtain embryonic stem cells from
which useful
tissues might be grown. they might feel more comfortable with a
hybrid
solution, if it were shown that the embryonic cow-human stem
cells were
viable as tissue producers but not capable of becoming a baby.

However there are many other ethical issues. For a start it
raises the
biggest question of all: how many human genes does a cow or
monkey have to
gain before we give it human rights? In these human-cow clones
one
imagines every court in the world would agree that the child born
would be
capable of being prosecuted for murder, even though it would
technically be
1% cow. But what about other proportions?

Humonkeys are within our capability and have been for several
years. Scientists have already made geep (combined sheep and
goat), and
camas (combined camels and lamas) simply by rolling two balls of
cells
together after fertilization. Monkeys and humans have 97% of
genes in
common so if the right 1.6% were transferred from a human to a
monkey we
could land up with a monkey more human than animal. These
questions will
need facing sooner than you may think. And for the theologians
another
question: how many human genes does an animal have to have to
need
salvation? Christians, Muslims and Jews believe that humans are
made in the
image of God. Human life is a mystery. What does that mean in
the light
of these extraordinary developments?


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