Theos-Talk Archives (July 2001 Message tt00348)

Sunday, July 29, 2001

Dear Friends:


Let me interject below in the body of our text some observations
to place the record as clearly straight as I can make it -- and I
believe you will find it consistent with what has already been
said by me. As always I wish to make it clear that these are my
own personal opinions.

Best wishes

Dallas

---------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Reitemeyer [mailto:ringding@blinx.de]
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 2:44 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ULT -- Dallas' view and answers to
DC.

Daniel:
As far as me asking you questions, you are always free to say
nothing
in reply. Many times I ask questions that I have privately asked
myself hoping that others might answer them or at least give
some
food for thought. But even if no answers are immediately
forthcoming, I believe there is value in the asking. I am free
to
ask the questions just as you are free to answer or not to answer
in
turn.

Frank:
I have these questions, too. And I know from internal local
discussions
among Theosophists that many co-students (some of them being not
online)
have the same questions about the claims the ULT makes.
There can be nothing wrong to ask back when one hears statements
which sound
self-righteous.

Here is a quick list of some former statements from ULT'ers which
turned out
through * questioning * as not true::

1. Claim: The ULT was the sole organization which reprinted the
books of HPB
and Judge.



DTB	INACCURATE U.L.T. HAS REPRINTED SOME OF THE BOOKS EITHER BY
PHOTOGRAPHIC METHODS OR BY NEW-SET TYPE. Any one who has studied
the history of the publishing by various THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
bodies has the whole history quite clear.



Result: Through inquiry in the mailing lists it turned out, that
this was a
tale. F.e. the Point Loma TS made also good reprints.



2. Claim: THE ULT gives freedom in opposite to the Point Loma TS
under
Tingley, which was a dictatorship.


Result: Tingley was not only appointed by Judge (who talked with
HPB over
that), but also elected in 1897 by over 5.000 delegates present
at
convention as represantatives of the Theosophists in the whole
world.


DTB	MAY I SEE ANY OBJECTIVE PROOF OF THIS STATEMENT ? TO THE
BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE THERE IS NO PROOF THAT TINGLEY WAS EVER
APPOINTED BY JUDGE, NOR IS THERE ANY PROOF OF JUDGE HOLDING A
CONVERSATION WITH HPB ON THIS SUBJECT.
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANY DOCUMENTS THAT DEMONSTRATE THESE
CLAIMS



Both
Tingley and purucker taught their pupils to learn to think for
themselves
and not to believe in any claims, even when it is an occult
"authority". In
writing and in living even opposing standpoint were presenteds to
the pupils
or readers.
For example the Purucker critic Dr. Stokes (he believed that
Purucker spoke
a bad English and does not really understand Sanskrit) was
invited to join
the PL TS (which he did around 1935).
Some day there was a new librarian in PL. He thought it would be
better to
ban the critic books from the shelves. When Purucker heard about
that he
went to him, ordering him to bring back foe books as he wanted
not to have
blind believers.

In opposite to that I never heard that a ULT official was elected
or even
who is responsible. The bosses of the ULT are hidden. No one
knows how the
control runs. I never read anything in their publications which
gives an
alternate view.


DTB	HOW U.L.T. IS CONSTITUTED IS FULLY DISCLOSED IN THE
"DECLARATION." Everyone is an "associate." All associates are
"volunteers." Choice for work to be done is by conference. What
mystery does that evoke?



So I come to the conclusion that we differ on the meaning of the
words, f.e.
what is "freedom", what is "dictatorship".

3. Claim: Robert Crosbie left the HQ by free will.
Result: He was kicked out and ULT suppressed it for nearly 100
years.



DTB	PLEASE GIVE US CHAPTER AND VERSE As TO THE REASON YOU HOLD
Mr. R. CROSBIE WAS "KICKED OUT." PROVE IT. Prove that the
U.L.T. "suppressed it."





4. Claim: Robert Crosbie never accepted Katherine Tingley as
rightful
successor to Judge and O.H.
Result: Actually he hailed her serveral times as rightful
successor and O.H.


DTB	IN THEOSOPHY THERE ARE NO "SUCCESSORS."

Yes while in the PL THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY he did write and speak
on her behalf.

This was before 1904, when he left the PL THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
along with Mrs. Crosbie and moved to So. Pasadena. Now let me
ask:

Can you provide me with any proof that he was "Kicked out ?"

Can you provide me with any proof that he ever aid anything
AGAINST Mrs. Tingley that was untrue and unjust ?



4. Claim: ULT forces no control of the thought of its associates.
Result: At least 4 persons (including myself) were censored on
the ULT
mailing list on Blavatsky-Net.


DTB	BLAVATSKY NET is not a dependent of the U.L.T. . I have also
been censored many more than 4 times on B. Net when things I
wrote were judged to be inappropriate. So what does that prove ?
Independence of decision.



5. Claim: The ULT has a parent lodge which is located in L.A.
Result: It turned out that this was a misinformation and there is
no parent
body.


DTB	CORRECT Los Angeles Lodge is merely the oldest ULT.



6. Claim: ULT'ers are 6th rounders.
Result: It turned out is was a typo for 5th rounders.



DTB	INCORRECT. ULTers are pain ordinary 4th Rounders like any
one else. Read carefully what I wrote.




Considering all this what turned out only uopn serious inquiry
and not by
open minded information policy of ULT officials one might ask
whether there
are still other myths to cover up when further questions would
arise.
When the different lineages really want to work together then we
need a
tabula rasa and we need to solve all problems BEFORE.
A co-operation with a hypocrisy mind will not work on the long
run as life
experience shows.
Only when all party lines are going back to Blavatsky a
co-operation will
really work. All other is illusion.
The fact that today there is no really co-operation means that no
party
today stands on HPB's level.


DTB	NO ONE EVER CLAIMED TO BE A "SUCCESSOR" TO H.P.Blavatsky as
she had none. She claimed Mr. Judge was her close friend and
collaborator and the Masters added their certificates to that.

The only thing that the U.L.T. has done is

1. to place H.P.Blavatsky's and Judge's writings back into print
so all students can have access to them.

2. It has also provided meeting places where those ORIGINAL
TEACHINGS can be discussed.

It places no restrictions nor does it demand any allegiance from
those who become "associates" and volunteers. Read the
DECLARATION of the U.L.T. . It say all that is needed to be
said.




Best wishes

Dallas

















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