Theos-Talk Archives (July 2001 Message tt00180)

Wednesday, July 18, 2001

Re: Theosophical HISTORY

Dear Denis:

I respect your views and research.

Yes I believe that each of the various offshoots of the ORIGINAL
THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in N Y (inaugurated: Nov. 17th, 1875) has
different explanations concerning events. [see BLAVATSKY:
Collected Works (TPH), Vol. I ]

Events are framed for posterity in documents. The causes and
conjectures of those who research history will for ever remain
opinions are and will always remain PERSONAL OPINIONS.

It is for the new reader to determine what seems appropriate, and
how much time can be spent on this, and, it is time well spent if
one intends answering questions on the subject from inquirers.

It however detracts from the time one can spend on studying
THEOSOPHY and learning what it teaches, and figuring our if it
makes good sense.

When all is said and done it is the logic and common-sense of
THEOSOPHY that leads the inquirer into a self-made certainty (or
a self-made delusion), depending on the basis taken and the
methods of study and comparative criticism employed.

I have done the comparative work for myself that you propose
doing, and it is a good exercise to do it so that you will learn
for yourself what these differing points are. Keep good notes of
your findings for future reference and back-checking.

As far as I am concerned, I prefer letting others do their own
research. I state my opinions, as far as possible only on
matters with which I have direct experience, and I try to define
that so that no element of "authority" enters into it.
Consequently I try to avoid perpetuating rumors or opinions about
people I have not met or whose writings do not seem to indicate
support of someone's qualification. It is better to show where
primary material can be found than "set up shop" and try to
interpret it to inquirers, in my esteem.

You mention Mrs. Tingley, and her being characterized as a
"spiritualist," or a "medium." I never met her and only look at
what she wrote and decide from that what I can understand of her
nature. And this is a rule I try to apply to all. As t Mr.
Judge being "led" or "misled" by her, I have no idea of how to
value that. I looked at the copies and excerpts from the
readings and diary notes and do not seem to get much knowledge of
additional inspiration from them. I suggest that you consider
and compare the work that the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY Section in
America did between 1886 and 1896 with that which it did under
Mrs. Tingley for the period, 1897 to 1907. did her "leadership"
add luster and assistance to what Judge had done? What has been
the fate of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in A since then?

You then mention the possible relations between Mme. Blavatsky,
Mr. Judge and the Mahatmas. But, from what you write you do not
seem to be acquainted with what they have themselves written on
the subject, or of their relations, and what the situation is
concerning past, present and future relations, with, and between
Great SOULS ( Great Spiritual Entities ), whether incarnate or
disincarnate. I believe that would be a pre-requisite. Why
should death of the physical body be the end of their work and
influence?

Again I have to rely on reports and have no direct experience of
those relations. But I can say that I have read and studied
THEOSOPHY extensively. And I believe that I can figure out some
relationships. But, again, I may not be prepared to share my
speculations. I strongly believe in independent study and the
marvelous quality of uninfluenced individual decision making
power. That is important to every researcher.

I can say that the information you desire to find is probably
available out of the mass of the original Teachings of Theosophy,
and each one will have to seize what he can. Each will have to
do their own work. Make their own decisions, and derive what
they can from the great and ancient philosophy. There are no
sure "short-cuts." Yet, when in doubt, there are always those
who are ready to try to assist on specific requests.

Suppose I were to advance a certain opinion; until such time as
you verify it yourself, you are using my word as a basis. In
other words you are relying on secondary evidence and my
opinion -- which may or may not be accurate.

I may say to you that H.P.Blavatsky Mr. Judge, the Mahatmas
etc., are not "dead" in the sense the average person takes "dead"
to mean. If you rely on my say-so, then you still don't know if
I am aware of a FACT (and have satisfactory personal evidence of
it) or am merely expressing a hopeful speculation. What evidence
and logic have your derived from a study of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY
(HPB) ? The logic and details are there, and can be applied to
the in formation contained in ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET
DOCTRINE . As I said, there are no "short-cuts."

If you wish to inquire into the "mental health" of Mr. Judge
towards the end of his life then read his last articles in THE
PATH / THEOSOPHY of 1895/96. Read also the articles from his
friends concerning their valuation of him and his work, printed
IN MEMORIAM after his death, and placed in THEOSOPHY magazine for
April / September 1896.

I believe you will see the difficulty. In making decisions, that
for us would be final and satisfactory, but, for others would
appear ridiculous and the vague vaporings of credulous fools, no
useful progress can be made.

If you can procure a copy of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME
published by THEOSOPHY COMPANY, Los Angeles in 1946, you will
find towards he end of that special centenary issue a number of
important statements concerning Mr. Judge, and the nature of his
"borrowed body" incarnation. These are not found in the
publishing of that book by other publishers.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=======================



-----Original Message-----
From: D----- K
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:35 AM
To:

Subject: Re: -- U L T Day Letter July 25th 2001


> DTB One needs to get one's facts straight and stop relying on
> second hand opinions and views. To which one adds (sadly) a
> fresh layer.
>
> If any one is further interested in straightening the record I
> will be glad to supply what facts I have and can find
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
DK>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you. Things are not getting much clearer, tho. I need a
scorecard to figure out who are the players, and which teams they
are
playing on. The more I read here, the more confusing things seem
to be
getting. I am ordering books from various publishers to try to
clear
it up.

Books recommended by several impartial
unbiased
observers-

You, (Dallas) recommend -

The Theosophical Movement: 1875 - 1950, Theosophy Company, 245 W
33rd
St., Los Angeles, CA 90007

I will write to them asking for their catalog, to get this one.

President John Algeo answered my inquiry, saying,:

" The best general histories are these:

Ransom, Josephine, a Short History of the Theosophical Society,
With
a preface by G. S. Arundale, Adyar, Adyar, Madras: Theosophical
Publishing House, 1938. Pp.xii, 591.

Ransom, Josephine, The Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Book of the
Theosophical Society; A Short History of the Society's Growth
from
1926-1950, 1950. Adyar, Madras: Theosophical Publishing House Pp.
Xii,
252.

For the American Section, the best history is this:

Mills, Joy. 100 Years of Theosophy; A History of the
Theosophical
Society in America. Wheaton, Ill.:TPH, 1987.

A brief and impartial history by an academic that covers the
whole
movement and not just the Adyar Society is this, which has some
inaccuracies, but is not ill-intentioned:

Campbell, Bruce F. Ancient Wisdom Revived: A History of the
Theosophical Movement. Berkeley: University of California Press,
1980.
Pp. X + 249."

The only one of these that I see in the QUEST catalog is the Joy
Mills
book, so I am sending for that one. I don't suppose any of these
are
available on line?

I was really surprised at seeing Mrs. Tingley called a
Spiritualist
Medium. When I saw that mentioned in OLD DIARY LEAVES, I just
assumed
that it was Mr. Olcott's bias that prompted it. There is no
mention of
that in the SUNSET "biography" of her. I am not sure how many
teams
Mrs. Tingley was playing on.

Seeing this in more than one source, especially when the sources
disagree with each other in almost all other things, gives more
weight
to it.

But then that leads to real questions about the mental health of
Mr.
Judge at the end of his life. Why would he be going to a medium
to
contact Mme. Blavatsky after she was dead?

Not only was she against the "spirits" when she was alive, but
the
fact that she was "overshadowed" by the Mahatmas, who pretty much
wrote (through her) all of the books and articles, and stood
watch
over the body at all times.

When she was asking her niece about Pi (3.141+), her explanation
was
that she didn't know anything about what she was writing, and
that
some other intelligence was using her as a stenographer
essentially.

She gave much the same story to others at various times. KH
claimed
that he (and M) wrote ISIS & The SD. About the time of her death,
various insiders wrote about seeing HPB as a spirit,
metamorphosing into
a high Adept.

I would think that by the time Mr. Judge met Mrs. Tingley all of
the
Mahatma's Astral bodies, and those who used to stand guard around
HPB
when she was alive, would have retired to their usual abode, and
the
intelligence that had been the human woman, HPB, would have had
almost
no interest to Mr. Judge. I can understand him seeking to
communicate
with any of the Adepts (still living). Evidently they weren't
communicating with him. But, for him to be seeking a Medium, and
then
to ask after Mme. Blavatsky instead of those Adepts all around,
mystifies me. Hence I wonder if Mr. Judge had suffered a fall, or
an
accident, with a sudden change of personality in the months
before his
death.

I suppose that I can find some answers in these books that you
and
other impartial observers recommend. As I assume that you and Mr.
Algeo are not on the same page, I would be interested in your
evaluation of the books recommended.

Dennis