Theos-Talk Archives (June 2001 Message tt00080)

Friday, June 22, 2001

Dear Mark

Personally I think about these things and about the definitions
we get from The SECRET DOCTRINE and elsewhere. I am convinced
the Universe is a rational and sensitive UNIT.

The word MONAD has been define by H.P.Blavatsky as a unit in
manifestation where the duality of SPIRIT/MATTER is coherent and
completely intertwined. You speak of the Source -- some have
used the concept of the UNIVERSAL MONAD, and the uncountable
quadrillions of life-units (Monads) are "metaphysical" rays of
that central and singular UNIT. This is how the embodied mind
used to matter and its limiting forms perceives or defines the
Monad.

H.P.Blavatsky apparently desires us to understand that the Monad
(which in us is the REAL MAN) is quite out of direct relation
with the physical and astral vehicles.

Example: If you were to speak to me on the 'phone. I don't hear
your actual vice but through the jumble of vibrations over wires
or through the ether, your voice is first dispersed and then
reconverted by a physical apparatus into something that sounds
much like you speaking to me directly, mouth to ear through air
in a room.

Examples of telepathy or clairvoyance (between sensitive
individuals) -- using the astral currents are somewhat similar,
but no physical apparatus. Some have this faculty to a degree,
others to a lesser degree.. I believe H.P.B. says we all have it
to some extent or we would not be able to UNDERSTAND each other.
And, we perceive either the thoughts themselves or the ideas. But
this is not spiritual knowledge, as the veils of delusion may
serve to distort even those . Those are conveyed by and through
the astral light and are subject to its inversion power. (This
is as I understand it.)

Our knowledge of the invisible realms is very limited, and it
might be a good idea to abstract from the Theosophical literature
all one can find there, and putting it together, try to make
sense of the details given.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=====


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Kusek [mailto:mark@withoutwalls.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:35 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: theos-l digest: June 20, 2001

Dallas wrote:

> the Atma-Buddhi-Manas INDIVIDUALITY. It is by definition
universal and wise ...



When the Monad (on the Anupadaka plane, where it is omniscient
and omnipresent) sends it's ray into
Atma, there to be enwrapped with Atmic matter, and all subsequent
involution downward, the very fact
of the encompassing material vehicles of these respective planes
renders the monadic ray senseless
and unconscious on those planes.

===========

DTB Where is it said that the MONAD is on the
ANUPADAKA PLANE ?
Is there a reference to this ?

ANUPADAKA

In The SECRET DOCTRINE I find that the Buddhas of Compassion and
the Dhyani Buddhas are called Anupadaka [ S D I 52, 100, 571 ]
The appellation of Anupadaka extends to the "Great Wheel (I 26,
47); Mulaprakriti ( I 2 ); Space eternal ( I 11);


MONAD

In The SECRET DOCTRINE I find that ATMA-BUDDHI is called the
Monad ( S D I 171-8, 178, 570,); the Breath of the Absolute (S D
I 247); Cosmic or Buddhi ( S D I 177); Divine ( S D I 174-175,
II 185-6, 377); Dual (S D I 69fn 426 II 303); every cell,
HUMAN a Monad (S D I 178-9, 575, 630fn, II 275); "Gods, Monads
and Atoms ( S D I 610-634, 613, II 123fn ); Gradual return to
the SOURCE ( S D I 171, 180-1); Jivatma ( S D I 132); and
almost too many to list -- see INDEX.


====================================


This is the whole reason for the need to incarnate. It needs to
"get" to the physical plane and
there to begin it's response to the gross impacts encountered
there as a mineral, so that it can
begin it's unfoldment and mastery of it's innate potential upon
them. If you think of the Upper
Triad in this way, you'll begin to understand the importance of
the development of
self-consciousness in Man and the critical role of the Causal Ego
in the higher initiations.

===========================

DTB As I read H.P.Blavatsky the incarnation into
matter by the DIVINE EGO (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) -- as depicted in
The KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) is for the purpose of

1. assisting the Monads of lesser experience presently involved
in "matter" to develop their innate potencies and become (by
their own self-efforts) consciously SPIRITUAL --

2. SPIRITUAL SELF-CONSCIOUS is to be UNIVERSALLY SELF-CONSCIOUS.

It is a spiritual gift -- sacrifice is a gift as for instance
passing the INTELLIGENCE acquired from a "Father" to a "Son."
see also The SECRET DOCTRINE I 207-210; TRANSACTIONS pp
66-76 -- BW Vol. 10, pp. 252 -264 ]

===============================


> Who or What is the SPECTATOR?

The SPECTATOR is that subject which arises when there is an
OBJECT to apprehend. The duality
inherent in this denotes a state of manifestation and hence a
self in a sheath, which technically is
a maya.

==========================

DTB So which comes first SUBJECT or OBJECT or is
there a point of observation that encompasses them both and is
therefore immutable ? Totally non-material. Seems to me this
process is eternal. So the "DUALITY" is not to be reduced but
understood. It also seems to me that our concepts of "Devachan"
and "Nirvana" have become materialized and are based on our
"brain-mind" concept of rest and doing nothing as "bliss." I
believe the S D says different. In reality it is MONADS of
greater experience assisting those who have more recently entered
the process of self-conscious investigation of their own powers
and the WILL.

===================================



> If it is a "Tool" then it is subject to refinement and shaping
by the USER OF THE TOOL. And Who or What is THAT ?


I AM THAT I AM. The monad.

===========================

DTB THE STATEMENT WHILE TRUE, EXPLAINS NOTHING. It
needs detail of origins and purpose and then of potential future
to make it clear. It does, as a paradox cause certain minds to
inquire, or at least to carry it in active memory.

============================


> To illustrate this H.P.Blavatsky employed an analogy of liquid
mercury placed in a shallow dish.

This analogy can be applied to more than just the threefold
personality around the causal Ego's ray
posit. It can also be applied to the thin veil of atmic matter
around the monadic ray posit upon the plane Atma, for example,
the highest acme in the field of manifestation (nonetheless a
maya).


Dallas, do you hold the view that the monad exists in
manifestation above Atma and that Atma denotes the first plane of
the prepared field of evolution? Or do you conceive them to be
exactly
identical?

=====================================

DTB	NO. I am of the opinion that ATMA is a direct emanation
from the ABSOLUTE. AND ITS "thin veil of atmic matter" as you
put it, is MULAPRAKRITI -- or MAHABUDDHI. It is quite possible
that we are saying the same thing but using different terms to
convey our ideas. But I have never heard of "Atmic-matter." I
do suppose that in contrast with the ABSOLUTE one could term
"ATMA" as "matter." But have you found a reference where
H.P.Blavatsky has spoken of this , or used this analogy? Where
has she ever said ATMA was material? There is something mixed up
here, I think, and I cannot quite make it out. Since the MONAD
ATMA-BUDDHI) is said to be immortal and eternal for a whole
Maha-Manvantara then I would agree that philosophically we might
view these as being a kind of "Manvantaric "body."

At the onset of a Maha-Pralaya, like the globules of mercury, all
would be reabsorbed into the ABSOLUTE. But I also assume that
MAHA-KARMA remains as a kind of CAUSELESS CAUSE which will again
cause the Manvantara on a KOSMIC scale to re-emerge.

H P B in ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISHTADWAITA [BLAVATSKY:
Collected Works (TPH) Vol. 7, p 50; H.P.Blavatsky Articles III
p. 265 ] states:

"I maintain as an occultist on the authority of the Secret
Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's
spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct
individuality in Paranirvana owing to the accumulation of the
aggregates [ MONADS], or skandhas that have survived after each
death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most
spiritual -- i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every
personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle [ATMA] into
Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the
line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad."

================================

> To permit their reuniting, the impurities are to be removed and
the barriers of an artificially
> created (ILLUSION ?) surface tension broken down.

This happens in a relative sense at each initiation as the
evolved locus of identity becomes "one"
with the principle "above" it.

The penultimate in this series is the final dissolution of the
evolved locus of identity on the
plane of Atma, when the monad at long last withdraws it's ray
from the atmic permanent atom.

=======================

DTB Why? How can this ever be done if ATMA is
UNIVERSAL ? Is this a metaphor? In any case see the quote above
from I U & the Vishishtadwaita.

=======================


This equates to what Jerry has described as the Buddhist teaching
of liberation by entering paranirvana. When the last of the
sentient beings has accomplished this, then the bodhisattvas get
to go home.

========================

DTB Sorry, again, where does H.P.Blavatsky say this ?
Even if They "go home" surely it is not "for ever ?" What would
they do then ? I do not envision all this work for an eventual
"nothing."

==========================



> It might also apply to the experiences of deep Meditation or
Samadhi and Turiya -- an embracing of
> the ALL and not loosing ones IDENTITY I that experience.


Dallas, are you saying here that you have direct experience of
these states? If so, please
elaborate.

=========================

DTB Whether or not I (as the physical brain-mind in
this personality) might have "direct experience": of any of these
states, or not, is not very material. In fact it would be
dangerous to answer as "those who say, know not, and those who do
not say, Know."-- is a statement that remains paradoxical. But,
I think, the point to make is that they exist and that
individuals have been there and have reported on their
experiences there.

The metaphysics of The SECRET DOCTRINE are valuable and (in my
opinion) they require careful study and analysis, if we are ever
to hope to understand the basis for them and any of their
daughter "religions" -- sprung up after the "prophet," or
"reformer," or " Messenger" left the scene.

I am concerned when I sense the introduction of non-H.P.Blavatsky
concepts, as they seems to interpose another level of thinking,
and even to blur and obscure, rather than enlighten, for the
reason that their introduction is often NOT logically explained.
(At least that is how I feel.)

Also since in writing I am "interpreting, I give my references so
that the reader will find "safety" in going direct to original
sources.

==========================


> This illustration / analogy using Mercury is offered there on
p. 336-7. CAVES & JUNGLES by H P B

It's a great analogy.

> Only the immovable sees the transcient? -- right ?>>


The immovable, would be the Absolute and it, by definition, can
have no relation to the relative
(transient). All subjectivity occurs in the field of
manifestation by monadic ray consciousness
positing at one or another locus of identity in relation to an
object of perception.

==========================


DTB	I am not sure that I know what "monadic ray" means unless by
that you mean the antaskaranic thread which links Higher Manas to
Lower Manas.

In any case all beings in Manifestation are MONADS -- each at its
own individual level of experience, so communication is
instantaneous and differences of comprehension would depend on
the level of understanding and sensitivity so far developed
between any one MONAD and its peers. The "aggregates" and the
"skandhas" are themselves Monads which are attracted
sympathetically to the advanced Monad which serves them as a
guide and an inspiration -- at last, that is as I understand it.

====================================

> as I recall he had a well annotated copy of The SECRET DOCTRINE
on his desk.

But that doesn't mean we can assume Einstein bought it hook, line
and sinker, or that his
interpretation would match ours.

=================

DTB AGREED -- BUT AT LEAST HE USED IT. AND DID NOT
DESPISE IT.

If he annotate it, it means he got something out of it, just as
we do. If he used the ideas there, then he had to make sure they
(in development) were tailored to the comprehension of his
fellows.

How many of us reject study of The SECRET DOCTRINE because our
personalities are not 'attuned" to its method of presentation?
At least I started with ISIS UNVEILED and that was something I
could grasp. But the study of The SECRET DOCTRINE is difficult
unless one forces one's personality to trace the various meanings
through their curious paths.

===============================


> as those fragments are at base UNIFIED and ONE WHOLE

The true base being the consciousness of the monad's non-duality
on it's own plane, outside the
prepared field of evolution (Atma to Sthula).

Dallas, I'm curious, what is your personal take on the Solar
Logos as the source of our life
wave's myriad and seemingly individual monads? What implications
does this have to you if the Solar
Logos is regarded as just "one among many" other solar Logoii?

=========================

DTB Re: "SOLAR LOGOS" If I recollect it was CWL who
introduced this term as more or less a substitute for a "Personal
God." -- Possibly a supposed Ruler of our solar system ?] If
that is correct, then It has no meaning that I (as yet)
understand. Have you found H.P.Blavatsky using this term? What
definition did she give to it ?

H.P.Blavatsky, however in the S D ( I 101, 440, 588-9) indicates
that the Sun and the planets are brothers.

=============================


> There is far more to be learned from Theosophy than struggling
psychology has so far gleaned

Perhaps, but I am not so easily inclined to brush aside the last
100 years of the revelations of
science for an exclusionary preference for the views of victorian
occultists. There is value and
merit in all of it, IMHO.

==========================

DTB I do not "brush them aside. I have been a
science editor for a long number of years (with the D. VAN
NOSTRAND COMPANY, Princeton, N.J.) and am pretty well acquainted
with the abilities and limitations of Science -- in so far as the
INDIVIDUALS who claim to administer it as "REVIEW AUTHORITIES"
are concerned. But they have admitted that there are very large
"gaps" that have to be filled in their theories.

H.P.Blavatsky in The SECRET DOCTRINE set down those gaps and
inconsistencies in her days and since then, some have been
bridged, and others remain sheer speculations and are unsupported
by ALL THE FACTS. One cannot build an empire on flimsy
foundations, and if you have followed the many fresh developments
since about 1895 on you will notice those which remain open.
Would you like a list ?

================================


> PRIMORDIAL SUBSTANCE cannot be material.

Isn't that the very definition of it? SPIRIT, INTELLIGENCE and
PRIMORDIAL SUBSTANCE are the manifest state of the Second (Solar)
Logos.

=========================

DTB	AGAIN -- where does H p B speak of a "SECOND SOLAR LOGOS " ?

=========================

> Even the idea of "Substance" would be the primary CAUSE of what
we call MATTER.

It's all just "holes in space" whirling around other "holes in
space" after all ... a paradox.


==============================

DTB in that case FORCE FIELDS are --- what ? How
caused ?

==============================


> Where there is any "duality" there perception and definition is
ALWAYS a matter of perception by
> their SOURCE, or THAT from which they emanated.

Not in my understanding, the perceiver spontaneously arises with
the object of perception and the
relation between them. You can't have one without the other. They
are dependent arisings. The
absolute doesn't perceive anything in the realm of manifestation.
Only the monad through its ray
does.

=================================

DTB Do you mean there is a miracle? NO, but there is
a CAUSE and CAUSES? "spontaneity" needs an explanation -- Yes
?

=========================



> To make this clearer (I hope) the ONE PRINCIPLE is ATMA
(whether Universal or individual) it is SPIRIT UNMODIFIED

Yes, as the first manifestation of the monadic ray in the field
of evolution, it is "Spirit", but
remember that it too has a thin veil of matter around it as
opposed to matter of the Buddhic plane
below it, which in contrast, has one additional "shell" of matter
encompassing it, etc., etc.,
...gaining more and more "shells" all the way down to Sthula.

======================================

DTB I can conceive of an encasement but to call it
"matter" requires a great stretch.
At some point they merge an are ONE. In Manifestation, the veil
of Mulaprakriti is, I am pretty sure this "veil of matter" you
speak of.

==================================

> For if you have "emptiness" you do not deny penetration of an
understanding CONSCIOUSNESS to that situation.


Emptiness is not an object of consciousness to be perceived.

==============================

DTB	Synonyms used in the past include Abyss, Chaos, Void,
"emptiness" is a translation from Buddhist schools, I think, and
need to be explained. Why should the ABSOLUTE and its ABSOLUTE
CONSCIOUSNESS/ NON-CONSCIOUSNESS be excluded -- or, are they not?

===============================


> They reflect only what we are able to frame as approximate
descriptions on this waking plane.

Yep. I agree. We all struggle with that one, eh?

Dallas, have you ever read J. Van der Leeuw's "Conquest of
Illusion?"

=============================

DTB	NOT YET. But I ask myself what or how is ILLUSION to be
conquered? Only CLEAR PERCEPTION can pierce through that and
other veils, I presume. ?

I also ask is CLEAR PERCEPTION individualized as well as
UNIVERSALIZED ?
===================================

Regards,

-- M


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