Theos-Talk Archives (April 2001 Message tt00107)

Monday, April 16, 2001

Let me insert some notes below

Dal
========================


-----Original Message-----
From: G S
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 1:40 PM
To: D T B
Subject: Responses to Dallas -- Dialog # 3


<<Reading and thinking on your comments, it occurs to me that we
approach the same things from different angles.. The main one is
that I visualize the urge to improvement as including everything
and, tentatively have called "perfection." You seem to
emphasize only the embodied mind and its limits.>>

JERRY: Dallas, where does this "urge to improvement" come
from? What is its source? Isn't the real source the belief
that you need improving? From my perspective this belief
is self-defeating and as long as one holds it, one
can never get there.

=====================================

NEW	DTB I have it, and assumed everyone else also did. Mine
manifests in a desire to make sure there was a rational reason
for anything. An urge to improvement it seems to me is a desire.
It desires to make sure that it KNOWS. It keeps pushing for
source material, history of development, corroborating facts, and
also wonders" "Is this necessary?"

Seems to me that it is dynamic and positive instead of morbid or
passive, but I could be wrong.


==================================


<< DTB Of course, I put it upside down. Sorry. But I
was assuming also that the energy came to the physical plane from
the superior planes: i.e. Spiritual to Manasic, Manasic to Kamic,
Kamic to Pranic, Pranic to Astral and finally from the ASTRAL
MODEL to the physical. >>

JERRY: Blavatsky says it does this through laya centers.
Laya centers are, apparently, the black & white holes of
cosmology.

====================================-

NEW DTB As I understand it the LAYA CENTERS are
points or planes of homogeneity that separate methods of
perception from one another. As a "dream:" may be quite
different from a "waking experience." It is also a point of
energy transfer. So it is termed to be neutral, adding nothing
of itself.

---------------------------------------------------

<< DTB old As far as I can guess, looking to the
description
we are given of 7-fold Nature and Man, the progress is in
understanding and discerning the propagation of force through the
7 planes and thus determining its laws, and our duties. If we do
not accept this conception then the Theosophical scheme is
worthless. Evolution is happenstance and there can be no final
"goal." But I wonder why this emphasis on chaos has arisen?>>

JERRY: Order comes out of chaos, just like light comes out
of darkness. Chaos is generally ignored, but should not be.
I do not believe that there is any "final goal" at all
except perhaps a conscious awareness of reality. Does
our becoming aware of reality, somehow change that
reality? I can't see how it would. I suspect that Reality
is changeless and we simply become more and more aware
of it.
=======================================

NEW	DTB Is not "REALITY" a contrast to "CHAOS" If one can
perceive both, then one is not influenced by either, unless one
allows it.

Harmony contrasts with discord, yet both employ sound (or some
other common medium) in which they are polar opposites ?

Why not apply the quality of CHANGELESS to THAT UNKNOWN which is
the logical SOURCE of both ? Separately you ask abut THE
ABSOLUTE. I sent some references I am familiar with. See also
the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY by H.P.B.


==========================================

<< DTB Whether in or out of our kind of space perception
it is always within the range of mental perception and
comprehension, is it not ? >>

JERRY: I don't see how the Monad is ever within anyone's
perception. Perceptions themselves imply a dualistic
condition of subjective observer and objective
observed, and the Monad is beyond all of that. In
other words, we can't perceive the Monad but rather
we can be it.
=====================================

NEW	DTB To be IT -- I agree, yet to understand its
presence / existence, demands a faculty anterior (?) or superior
(?) to it, which either parallels its presence, or implies that
the MONAD is a derivative from IT. [ see S.D. pp.: Vol. 1
69fn 135 174-5fn 177-9 247 289 426 570 632 Vol. II 60,
123fn, 167,

======================


<<If we are too bound to the physical we set up barriers to the
rest which are CAUSAL and we then cannot perceive them easily.>>

JERRY: Agreed. But I recall Blavatsky somewhere saying that
all you have to do to raise consciousness to the mental
plane is to close your eyes.
===========================================

NEW	DTB Not a bad analogy. One cancels a set of
perceptions, and exchanges them for another set. But the will of
the EXCHANGER is (to me ) that CONSCIOUSNESS in action -- it
causes the WILL to set new parameters.

To raise the consciousness is a bit different than changing it.
To me the implication of "raising" is the application of
universal and impersonal, and brotherly, charitable
characteristics.
Nature's laws which appear to be universally supportive of life,
seem to imply to me that their support by us volunteering to do
so is a test in itself -- as to whether our "soul" (MANAS) is
capable of being trusted with higher and more significant duties
and responsibilities.

If we are very selfish and centered on our own ease, then we may
not be suitable to be entrusted with greater or higher "powers,"
as we could probably employ them for our own isolated ease. In
other words we wont deserve them -- that is if the thesis is
correct that Nature is essentially a vast cooperative dedicated
to the life-support of all creatures and the development through
experience of their intelligence and consciousness.


==================================


<< DTB Is not the "ray" a full "agent" or
"representative" of the MONAD with all its potentials included ?
that's why I made no distinction. SPIRITUAL is SPIRITUAL. I
would say that the SPIRITUAL RAY of the ATMA is derived from the
UNIVERSAL and IMPARTITE ATMAN -- or the ABSOLUTENESS.>>

JERRY: Well, it seems to me that if the ray had "all its
potentials included" then there would be no need for any
reincarnation or evolution at all. There are degrees of
spirituality, just like there are degrees of physicality
(solids, liquids, gases, etc).

===================================

NEW	DTB Reincarnation is not for its (the Monad's)
private or individual spiritual improvement as the "Reincarnating
Ego." It merely offers as a "graduate Monad" an opportunity of
assisting it so that this "graduate" will function as an example
of excellence and Progression to the "Monads of lesser
experience" It rejects the state of a selfish Nirvana, or, a
condition of protracted ease and bliss, and of the necessary
separation from all its fellows. Thus, it renounces Nirvana, and
when the Bodhisattva is at the threshold of Buddhahood and
Nirvana, it "throws the prize away," so as to be of continuing
service in Nature to those who need its wisdom. I get this from
THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and the S.D. I must say it sounds
pretty good to me, as the concept of doing nothing except
enjoying amusement and "bliss" -- whatever that is -- sounds
.like it might get awfully boring after a while.

As I see it, the goal of evolution is not just
SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT. It is something far greater and I would
call it self-sacrifice. I found the idea explained art the end
of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE.


=======================================

<< DTB You may think that the "I" as presently embodied
in my physical material body is an illusion and I cannot but
agree.>>

JERRY: When sought, it cannot be found.

================================

NEW	DTB Physically I agree, as it has no recognizable or
tangible size or form. But intellectually and metaphysically I
can see the necessity for it, and what it represents in contrast
with various states of ignorance and doubt.

====================================

<<But as an illusion in dialog with another we seem to be doing a
pretty good job of work and thinking. Also I for one don't feel
"illusory" at all.>>

JERRY: We do have a conventional or relative reality.
But when we try to find our "body" we can only find parts
arranged in specific patterns. When we try to find our
"mind" we find only parts arranged in specific ways.
So, if this "I" is neither body nor mind, then what
is it? Is our "I" something outside of the body
and mind? When we postulate a soul, and then seek to
find that, do we ever find it anywhere? When we
postulate an atma or selfhood, do we ever find such
a thing? If so where is it? What does it look like?
Does it have a color? Does it have a form? etc. etc.
This kind of logical searching has been going on
in the East for centuries. Certainly everyone has
the feeling that they exist, but is there a self
anywhere to locate and describe? Personally I am
still looking.

==========================================

NEW DTB So am I -- but I am pretty sure that if there is
any form involved it will be only one of FORCE or of POWER and
around it will be found accreted the intelligences and powers
needed to eventually produce on this plane the physical forms we
are using and familiar with.

==========================



<<H.P.B. in the KEY states that the "materialist" as she
describes him
there, will mentally do this trick of eliminating himself.>>

JERRY: The materialist only looks at the body and
mind and no farther. We are not materialists, and so
we look deeper and further to see where and what
the "I" is. But this looking has to be a meditational
exercise that can go beyond body & mind.
=====================================

NEW	DTB AGREED

========================================

<< But I think if we start with the concept of the immortality
and eternity
of the MONAD logic would prevent this error. In any case of what
possible
good is it wither to the individual who thinks that way or to
anyone else?>>

JERRY: Not sure what you mean by "start" but I guess
that you mean that we "assume the existence of" which
implies faith. The materialist thinks that the "I" is
the body/mind complex even though it can't be found there.
Why can't we just eliminate these and move upward in
stages until we find something? As far as we want to
look, we find no "I" but we do find conscious awareness.

=========================================

NEW DTB Sounds like a minor language difference. "I"
requires an awareness of SELF and of the "other" -- Mind --
Image-making faculty. Substitution of form depends on the
conditional concepts already set up -- cannot pin it down to any
one nomenclature

=========================================


<<I know you are not in any way a "materialist," but then I seem
to be confused by the positions you seem to take.>>

JERRY: In CONSCIOUSNESS AT THE CROSSROADS, scientists
tell HH the Dalai Lama that they have not been able to
find a soul anywhere in their observations of the body/
mind. He agrees with them, because he hasn't found
one either, and I don't think he is a materialist.

=============================

NEW DTB "Soul" or "anima" is the source and origin needs
a "mirror" to "see itself." Its existence is inferred as
something provides the power to perceive and the power to choose
and act. Not material, but perhaps a highly spiritual (rarified)
aspect of individualization. Something guides the body to act.
What shall it be named ?

==============================


<< DTB IF the MIND comes from somewhere, what is its
origin and parentage ? What are its duties? How does it relate
to other beings in the Universe?>>

JERRY: Everything has to be the effect of some cause.
Not only karma, but science too, accepts causality.
Science views the mind as caused by the body/brain.
Buddhism teaches that due to svabhava, things can
only produce like things.
====================================
NEW	DTB	Svabhava is defined as the "nature of things " within
the "substance and essence of the world stuff...From it all
nature proceeds and into it all returns at the end of the
life-cycles....It is named the "Father-Mother" it is the plastic
essence of matter." Theos. Glossary
As I understand it, it is the source of forms and is guided by
the Universal Karma as well as the individual Karma of the being
which is progressing through the numberless fields and planes of
evolution. I therefore assume that the individual Monad
following the patterns of Karma provides not only the inherent
quality of the being, but also the "path" of evolutionary growth
for it I think you have difficulty wit the concept of the
individual Monad and think of the use of that word as
representing only the UNIVERSAL MONAD. I say if it is UNIVERSAL,
then it is equally present or diffused or immanent in every
"life-atom-unit." And my approach to the permanent UNIVERSAL
MONAD is to see it present in every place without any exceptions.
What we might call "void," or "chaos" is merely the conditions
and planes where we have no appropriate sensory perceptors. To
our present consciousness in this plane those others are
inexplicably "empty."
In TRANSACTIONS, H.P.B. (p. 111, ULT Edn.) states "That which in
the S.D. is referred to as the unmanifested planes ( 7 ) are
unmanifested or planes of non-being only from the point of view
of the finite intellect; to higher intelligences they would be
manifested planes and so on to infinity, analogy always holding
good."
(p. 122, ULT Edn.) "Every plane has its own denseness of
substance or matter, its own colors, sounds, dimensions of space,
etc., which are quite unknown to us on this plane, and as we have
on earth intermediary beings, the ant for instance, a kind of
transitional entity between two planes, so on the plane above us
there are creatures endowed with senses and faculties unknown to
the inhabitants of that plane. ... [ suggestive of the "knots of
Fohat" ]
I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I found it interesting

================================
JERRY	Dogs can't give rise to cats,
but only another cat can do so, and so on. Thus to
a Buddhist, a mind can only be produced by another mind.
Our mind is thus the effect of our past mind - the mind
that we had in our last life - and so on throughout
history without end. It is the mind that gives us our
sense of being a separate self, and that produces the
notions of "I" and "mine" that lead to all sorts of
delusions and afflictions. "The mind is the slayer
of the real" is a Buddhist teaching.
=========================

NEW DTB AGREED

=============================

<< DTB If you mean the embodied Lower Manas, I agree,
but then I
am also talking about the Higher Manas with its roots in the
INFINITE and
the SPIRITUAL ALL. As CONSCIOUSNESS it is able to pass
unaffected through
all planes and register the events and correlations of thought
and event
there.>>

JERRY: Its roots may be in the right place, but it's
still delusional. As long as the mind operates in such
a way as to see a separate self observing a surrounding
not-self, it will be delusional. I don't see the Higher
Manas as equating to consciousness, but rather I see
consciousness focusing through the Higher Manas, as it
focuses through all sorts of gross and subtle bodies.

NEW DTB AGREED But it is a Unitary "something"
these are changes in the use of terms but the underlying ideas
are very similar.

============================================


<< DTB But then even MANAS comes from somewhere -- and
as far as I can see it is CONSCIOUSNESS, awareness of self and
the "other." >>

JERRY: The dualistic consciousness that you describe
here is delusional. Intrinsic awareness, the awareness
of the Monad, is not afflicted in such a manner.
=============================

NEW DTB Whether multiple of singular the CAUSAL
SOURCE is ONE AND UNIVERSAL. Individualization is caused by
residence and accepting the limits in any plane of matter as a
base for selfhood.

=================================

<< DTB ............MIND ?" H.P.B. does place it in the
MONAD along with ATMA and BUDDHI. It is the essential "third"
which limits the ever unlimited "duality.">>

JERRY: It does so extend. When consciousness focuses
through the human brain/mind its delusions produce
"I" and "mine." When it focuses through atma-buddhi
it is a purer awareness, but still tainted with
duality. It must transcend atma altogether in order
to reach non-duality.

=============================================

NEW DTB Every Plane allows a central point of
perception, but the unified centres emanate from one entity: the
"ray" of ATMA (universal spirit/wisdom/law) focused though the
MONAD as one of its poles. Hence a "duality for the space of a
Manvantara or a Maha-manvantara. Hence the concept of the return
of the ATMIC Ray to the ABSOLUTE (plus the experience gained) --
since nothing is lost in Nature's progress.

=====================================

<< DTB WHY do you (without any logic that I am able to
apprehend) hold that these are "illusions?" >>


JERRY: I thought I was being terribly logical here.
The logic of any universe model is based on the
fundamental assumptions and axioms of that model.
Lets take HPB's model. It is given in her writings
in piecemeal and is confusing and so we sometimes
can't even agree on what her model is. Lets use,
for argument, the 7-plane 12-Globe model drawn in
Purucker's Fountain-Source (F-S).

============================================

NEW DTB I am not familiar with this and find a 12
globe concept needs explanation. Also I do not have GDEP's
writings at hand. I have no idea where he has generated a 12
Globe model -- H.P.B. did not use that as I studied in S.D. and
ML so I conclude GDEP speculated in this manner - so it is his
idea and not H.P.B.'s.
H.P.B.'s "model" is based on a repetitive spiral so far as the
material 4 planes are concerned. The Higher 3 planes she
indicates are there, but they do not participate in the evolution
of the material lower planes. I would suggest that they
represent the 3 aspects of CONSCIOUSNESS (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) and
these are the stable point in the many gyrations of the lower
planes of being, of consciousness, perception, ratiocination and
physical existence. I am also sure that for them there is some
aspect of a higher evolutionary spiral, but I have not identified
this with any degree of exactitude.

=======================================

JERRY	At the very top is divinity, and she give us precious
little to
describe this. Then this divinity gives off "sparks"
which are the Monads - these are, by definition,
non-aggregates or indivisible units that can be
called consciousness-centers.

==============================

NEW DTB I do not see it that way. If the
"individual Monads" are "sparks" or "rays" of the ONE UNIVERSAL
MONAD then, potentially all the powers and force of the ONE are
potentially there, even if "covered" by different forms.
But the Monads are in evolution AGGREGATES being
SPIRIT/MATTER/MIND in combination for the period of the
Manvantara. Of what use is SPIRIT either as a Whole or as an
Individualization if it cannot mirror ITSELF to Itself ?

=================================

JERRY	These monads, then give off "rays" that enter into
manvantaric
expression. Each manvantaric expression takes the
form of a planetary chain of Globes on 7 cosmic
quantum-like planes as Purucker shows them. The
top of this scheme is spirit, and the bottom is
matter, and these two are said to be two sides of
the same stuff. Each monadic ray is said to be a
pilgrim in that it begins 7 Rounds of the chain
unconsciously and ends up with full self-consciousness,
the entire 7 Rounds comprising a manvantara.
Do we agree so far????
======================================

NEW DTB I HAVE TO THINK THIS OVER -- it kind of
fits, but I need to see the parameters proposed better and more
clearly in the light of analogy and correspondence.

=================================

JERRY	She also takes a Hindu approach and says that each
Round is a breath of Brahman, and that the whole
thing is maya or some kind of cosmic illusion.
Now, with all of this in mind, my logic is that
the monadic ray enters these realms of illusion
(de Purucker equates the lower 4 planes to the
Buddhist desire realm, and the upper three planes
to the Buddhist form realm, which considers
these are very illusive and caused by ignorance)
peregrinates through them and then transcends them
to return to its parent where it is "absorbed."

===============================

NEW DTB I find this a new concept series and
would have to work it out -- I don't derive this concept from
what I know of the S.D. I say: If intelligence is able to
penetrate and animate forms, then the forms are planes on and in
which that consciousness is able to perceive and act. ( see S.D.
I 181, 157 ) But I do not see any additional value to a change
in what H.P.B. and the Masters gave us to study. Do you ?

===========================================


Basically then, the non-duality of the Monad gives way to the
duality of the monadic ray.
===========================================

NEW DTB I don't find a good base for this switch
in concept Is the MONAD not ATMA-BUDDHI? I thought the MONAD
was the "ray" that emanated from the ABSOLUTE as manifestation
demanded a spiritual base (in a new Manvantara) for the action of
delayed Karma (laid up in the slumbering MONAD) to work in and
through. I do not find that H.P.B. says a MONAD is created out
of nothing -- suddenly and without cause. Hence I take it that
all MONADS are in their resting phase during Pralaya.. After all
the MONADS are designated as immortals and eternal. A change of
condition would not affect their BEING. They are not non-essed.

====================================

The very first duality we hear about is Space and Motion, and
then
comes matter and spirit, and then we logically assume
that all the others come about. Now, both Vedanta
and Buddhism agree that duality is illusion and
that non-duality is reality. Can we safely assume here
that Theosophy agrees with this????

=============================

NEW DTB	I agree that duality without limits is illusory as in
symbolism duality only signifies difference. However if the
duality is limited by a third line so as to form a triangle, the
irrationality of dualism (or of 2) disappears. But as I look at
the concept I see a SOURCE, divergence, and limits placed on
divergence which in effect produces limits and then ultimately a
re-convergence . This is only symbolism, but it involves 4 --
perhaps the sacred Tetraktys of Pythagoras ? -- on 3 planes, and
below that the 4 planes of " matter/form" with the 7 globes
arranged in positive/neutral/negative juxtaposition. [ 3 Globes
in descent; 1 Globe (D) in the balance or neutral position;
and, 3 Globes in ascent ]
Is one of this pair the OBSERVER, or is the OBSERVER/PERCEIVER a
separate entity from these? Are they merely contrasting actors
and experiencers in a field of change where only KARMA is stable
? What qualities distinguish SPIRIT from MATTER ? Why is such a
contrast necessary? Who benefits from it? Or is there a triple
benefit by the experience ? These are my "wonderings."
=======================================

So, duality, and everything in it (i.e., its dualistic
constituents)
are all basically an illusion or distortion of
reality. Then it will logically follow that atma
itself is mayavic, and even more so atma-buddhi which is
dualistic and not monadic at all.

==========================================

NEW DTB As I understand it

1. the UNIVERSE IS ETERNALLY EXISTING

2. It is a plane for many experiences.

3. For the sake of the development of the SPIRIT/SOUL
through those experiences the multi-fold UNIVERSE is framed.

4. We, at present are able to perceive the physical and its
limitations.

5. There is always in manifestation
1. the ABSOLUTE BACKGROUND

2 the SPIRITUAL base

3 the MATERIAL base

4 the MIND which is able to see both

5 What H.P.B. in the S.D. designates as the MONAD
is
this combination.

I do not find difficulty with this. Also I am not troubled by
the distinctions of duality, singularity, triads and squares.
They are all ONE and we divide them for the purpose of
understanding starting with our present basis using our embodied
mind. It is our physically embodied mind that makes the
divisions and not the "Things in themselves" So here we are
(S.D. I 200) at the base of the involutionary arc of Spirit into
Matter, trying to elevate by inquiry our perceptions as we swing
over into the current of the evolution of Matter into SPIRIT --
or so I understand it. All this effort, and this
self-determination must have a cause, a reason, and it probably
extends beyond our own personal horizons, and includes our
"position" as "part of a whole." I sense that here we have
(speaking in general) the triad of SPIRIT MATTER MIND and the
4th is the "eternal background" of the ABSOLUTE which is
quality-less insofar as our present plane of individualized
perception is concerned.

====================================================

<< I simply cannot understand the concept of NOTHINGNESS or
TEMPORARINESS when we
are confronted with a universal plenum.>>

JERRY: All I can say here, Dallas, is that plenum
and nothing are two dualistic extreme positions, and
reality is in between them.

==================================

NEW DTB I understand what you say. But for me,
it changes nothing. (see just above) As I look at this its is
simply a different way of describing the same thing. I do not
hold that any of the systems of description is correct, or
superior to the others. They simply use the same parameters and
approach the REALITY in different modes of description.

=================================


<< That is experience. The other is speculation on a
contrasting "something" which is
undefinable (do far to me) either in logic or in metaphysics as I
understand them. How can you adopt something which cannot be
explained?>>

JERRY: I don't see how you can logically explain your
own position here. How can you hope to hold onto a plenum
and throw away a void??? They are two faces of the
same thing.

=========================================

NEW DTB I don't disagree with this. To me : plenum /
space / void are not identical concepts since Theosophy and
ancient Wisdom views manifested SPACE as filled with a sea of
MONADS, (S.D. I 289) during the period of manifestation, and,
that when this is over , and Pralaya supervenes the "SEA OF
MONADS" goes into a subjective state and is NOT eliminated or
abolished.
Hence the concept of the ABSOLUTE which as the ONE REALITY always
IS.
Even if we "exist" while the condition of Pralaya is prevalent
(like Devachan -- I guess --) there is a "sleeping entity"
which cyclically re-awakens with its companions, and together,
they resume their interrupted work.
How else can one accept the concept of immortality, eternity or
universality, and yet retain the limits of INDIVIDUALITY.
If we accept the material limits of our waking presence, then the
THINKER and the OBSERVER are reduced to the concept of
NO--"thing." Or of an entity of some different kind of
supersensuous matter ON ANOTHER PLANE OF BEING. And that I can
conceive of as a possibility, but not define.

==========================================


DTB To continue the analogy there is perception of
the "cloud-thoughts." >>

JERRY: Yes, but such a perception is a delusion, an
erroneous experience based on ignorance of reality.
Once one knows the truth, that the clouds are obscurants,
then they can be seen through.


DTB	OK


<< These lead to conclusions, and have
inter-relations that seem clear to me. I do not perceive "gaps"
between them as the CONSCIOUSNESS can consider selectively or all
as a group instantaneously.>>

JERRY: How can you ever hope to see the bright clear sky
that clouds obscure?? We are not trying to see them
selectively or collectively, but rather we are trying
to see through them. Most people think that thoughts
are all the mind has, that without thoughts there is
death or oblivion. The exact opposite it true. And
yes, thoughts do pass through our mind one after the
other with a tiny space in between in which the light
of buddhi shines through for very brief instances.
===================================


NEW DTB Take for example, meditation when the
distractions of mind perception whether memory or visual are
controlled and set aside, this is what Patanjali describes as a
SPECTATOR WITHOUT A SPECTACLE. It has selected a "thought" and
desires to define its source and cause, taking all other factors
into account. This then forces it to consider and apply what it
knows about the other planes -- and it tests these with its
corresponding principles.

==========================================


DTB <<Take another example, we are continuously penetrated by
magnetic fields,
{Cosmic, Solar, Planetary, Earthy, the thought-desires of other
humans, the
emotions and instincts of the animals, etc., ) there is hardly
any way we
have of isolating or distinguishing one from the other
physically, unless it
is extremely strong, or we have constructed the right kind of
apparatus to
isolate and examine any one of them -- and even then, we are
unsure of their
presence or absence, since they may be there, but either of a
tenuity that
we cannot register accurately, or emanate from a plane which is
totally
different from the physical perceptive plane we know so well.
(For instance
the "astral," or the "psychic," or the "spiritual.")>>

JERRY: I agree that we are so bombarded. But like a radio
that tunes in on a specific frequency, we can selectively
tune in to any of these bombardments.


<<If we cannot perceive them, how can we deny them ? At best we
can say "maybe." And keep an open mind for new evidence. But
denial may be merely shutting ourselves up voluntarily in a
sphere of continued ignorance. Personally, while not
understanding everything, I would rather keep a space reserved
for things that are at present inexplicable, but, which have
happened, and have been observed, I think they deserve
recognition -- and perhaps in the future that relationship and
explanation that adjusts them to what we presently think of a
'norm' will be made clear. ISIS UNVEILED is full of the record
of events which remained inexplicable to observers until the
occult. Laws were made plain.>>

JERRY: OK, but I don't recall ever having denied them.

DTB	NO	YOU DIDN'T. Must be my way of writing.
-----------------------------------------------


<<The contrary is also true, if we can perceive them, then we
have proved
the illusory nature of our present limitations.>>

JERRY: The illusory nature of our present surroundings
is already pretty obvious to most of us.
================================

NEW	DTB YES to those who think. But then to notice the
changes there is something that is stable -- or else a CHANGE
noticing other changes has no basis for accurate comparisons.
One wonders why this contrast has been established. Is it to
emphasize CAUSE and effect ? This to me drives me back to say:
"Why is there anything? Why do we have to live through life a
prey to sadness and joy?"
Am I subject or King, or a bit of both? In any case my existence
is something I have to discover.

================================

<< Something of the nature of similarity or of permanency has
made the
observation. I would like to know what that is.>>

JERRY: There is nothing permanent there. Anything making
observations is a temporary illusion, because its
existence depends on making observations. Without any
observations, what can we say about an observer?
=======================================

NEW DTB One has to take the quality of the AKASA
into account as a recorder of everything -- the memories we lose
are still of record there. But perhaps you think they are
eventually effaced, whereas as I read the teachings they are
eternally present as the continuing base for all Karma,
individual and Universal.


=========================================


<<Somewhere there is a balance and a harmony -- to be recognized
and employed. Somewhere in me there is an equivalence which does
not reject but seeks to understand.>>

JERRY: Harmony and discord are two faces of the same
thing. You can't have one without the other. Non-duality
is a transcendence of both sides, not of one at the expense
of the other.

=====================================

NEW DTB AGREED.
But, it still takes a NEUTRAL position to detect the difference
between the two and to seek for their cause and that UNITY which
has placed them in juxtaposition during manvantara. Is this
neutral point not the Mind or that aspect of the ONE
CONSCIOUSNESS which is active on any selected plane of perception
and action?

=======================================


<<DTB What I meant was that the SELF (ATMA) in order to become
self-conscious has to use "forms" or "material" (paradoxically
derived from itself as "matter" -- Maha-Buddhi -- ) and as
manifested Nature consists of these, the memories as accretions
add the increasing dimensions of this capability..>>

JERRY: I agree that this is what happens, but what you
explain here is also the very cause of our delusional
existence as well as of our karma. Atma coming to define
itself and its not-self is what the Arc of Descent is
all about.

========================================

NEW DTB The "arc of Descent" as I see it, is the
plunging of Spirit into matter and an ever increasing
individualization manifests in its perceptive consciousness which
is restricted to perceptions on that plane during that process.
As I understand it, it is done on a voluntary basis by those
SPIRITUAL BEINGS who agree to assist Nature in her work of
assisting the development of beings in that condition, as they
develop for themselves a still more individualized consciousness,
attain the stage of Mind-mankind, and these successful graduates
do this because they elect to make their knowledge available out
of a charitable, and brotherly impulse to help all Beings rise to
the level they have attained of being independent and self-willed
fully SPIRITUAL BEINGS.
The transformation is in the consciousness of the forms (built
by and from karma) used by the "Monads of lesser experience." --
as I see it they tend to become individualized and recognize the
SPIRITUAL SELF and its PLANE OF LIFE. We belong to this category
and our present thought and questioning, is part of the testing
that has to be undertaking. (At least that is my speculation.)
The material we use (Monads of lesser experience) is also raised
to a higher degree of conscious individualization. Personally I
prefer this as a proposal and line of future work to the concept
of retirement for some indefinite period to a "blissful" repose
far away from the sorrows, pains and trammels of the world at
large and my companions in particular.


================================


<<The only other statement that bears possibly on this is the one
that states nothing g is ever obliterated. The impressions made
in the AKASA are PERMANENT -- presumably in, thorough, and after
Pralayas and Maha-Pralayas. They would form the basis for the
Plan and Laws of a future Manvantara -- a re-manifestation.>>

JERRY: There are manvantaras and there are manvantaras.
There are pralayas and then there are pralayas. The akasa
carries over karmic imprints from the pralaya of the
lower four cosmic planes, but certainly not for a mahapralaya
when the whole 7-plane system goes.
==============================

NEW DTB	I can't speculate about the remote possibility of what
happens at (or after) a Maha-pralaya. But, I first ask myself:
"If Nature has gone to this effort in producing and supporting us
and the rest of evolution, then why undo everything with a
whimsical sweep of an incredible carelessness? -- There indeed
would be the operation of an anthropomorphic God -- who is
careless of his charges.)
Considering that Nature (Universe) works economically, except for
the extra time employed, why should it be any different from a
Pralaya (or, come to think of it, DEVACHAN, of which we have no
conscious recollection -- and we usually have no conscious memory
of name and form and personal experiences in our previous life)
What happens to the BUDDHAS, the DHYAN CHOHANS, why would the
individual MONAD at the core of our Being (a unit of
SPIRIT/MATTER) be wiped out? Why all the work for nothing?

====================================

JERRY	Where is akasa that it can carry over anything from one
7-plane solar system
to another? And why does it need to? I don't see any need for
such a thing.

========================================

NEW DTB The question of TIME is indeed an
illusion -- I answer WHY NOT ?
Why should the Karmic bonds be truncated by our concepts of time
and duration? It also faces the question: Why all this effort
if it is to be disposed of, apparently frivolously and
whimsically?. I certainly don't feel I am wasting my time, and I
am sure you are not either. I am sure there are cycles within
cycles and our mental perception of their duration has nothing to
do with their actual reality. Why should any 7-plane or 10 plane
system be wiped out after aeons of effort and progress?
That to me makes little sense. I can understand that our
embodied minds loose any concept of reality in view of our short
term existence and experience in THIS LIFE.
Also this embodied mind watches the running down of the body and
other functions dependent on the body. It probably knows it will
not be reincarnated fully, but only the higher aspects of its
life and work have any hold over immortality and eternity -- so,
at the end of a Maha-Manvantara why not assume a similar
continuity?
I have for a definition of AKASA: " The subtle, supersensuous
spiritual essence which pervades all space...the primordial
substance...the Universal Space in which lies inherent the
eternal Ideation of the Universe in its ever-changing aspects on
the planes of matter and objectivity, and from which radiates the
FIRST LOGOS OR EXPRESSED THOUGHT. "


=======================================


<<The embodied Ahankara ("I") is a self-centered and usually
physical body-based, isolated sense of selfish identity, unless I
am much mistaken. >>

JERRY: This is a Hindu term that you don't find in
Buddhism. In any case, its existence is an illusion.

============================================

NEW DTB What does it matter which system the word
is abstracted from?
Buddhism is a reform of Hinduism, as by the time the Buddha
worked, the Hindu Brahmins had perverted and materialized many of
their ancient doctrines and rites. They also used their ancient
wisdom/knowledge to acquire ascendancy over the people of their
time -- had in effect turned VIRTUE into VICE.
Also, at that time Pali (or Prakrit) was a popular dialect
derived from the Sanskrit.
I would venture to say that not all the Sanskrit philosophical
terms were carried over into the Pali Buddhism. I also observe
that the Buddha observed reticence on certain subjects which
would only overwhelm the average capacity to understand
metaphysics, etc... [ Look at the difference between Mahayana
and Vedanta -- the terms differ, but the ideas are very close.
The idea is, I think, valid, I would say that if we can think of
it we make of the passing idea a permanency and it is impacted in
the Akasa, and forms part of our Karma. ]
I have for a definition of Ahankara: "the egotistical and
mayavic principle in man, due to our ignorance which separates
our "I" from the UNIVERSAL ONE SELF -- Personality, Egoism."

=====================================


<< DTB It Atma is a "ray" of the one Spirit, then I agree that
the lower 6
principles are subordinate and operate as its
vehicles. But the SPIRIT in each of us, appears to me to be
"permanent" even if in contrast with the others.>>

JERRY: Relative to us, it does seem permanent. But logically
it can't be.


NEW DTB I don't get that at all. If it is done or
thought it has a continued existence-
===================================



<< I am concerned with the ideas and not whether Buddhism or
Hinduism has
phrases or concepts that are similar. >>

JERRY: OK, but this is what the 2nd Objective is about.



<< I am of the opinion that the
expressions of either of those schools has passed through so many
hands in translation that the original clarity has dimmed.>>

JERRY: Well, we are today getting a very fresh input
from Tibetans who have been forced to flee from their
homeland. I read their writings a lot, and they are
remarkably consistent and coherent. Tibetan Buddhism
has helped me to put Theosophy into perspective so that
I now see things in it that I missed before.

============================================


NEW DTB The ONE SELF would be the UNIVERSAL MIND or the
SOUL OF THE
UNIVERSE. In manifestation: ATMAN. Out of manifestation:
PARAMATMA. or THE ABSOLUTE.

===================================================

JERRY: To me, this is all just a bunch of personifications.

There is no One Self except perhaps as an idea in our
mind. Mahat is a Hindu personification.
Atma is a belief that we each possess a separate and individual
self.
Truth is neither absolute nor relative but rather a transcendence
of
these two dualistic concepts.
Duality is duality. We pretend that we understand the duality of
spirit and matter
but somehow fail to understand absolute and relative, or
permanent and transitory for that matter. And how many of us
understand existence and non-existence? Yet all dualities are
dualities, and all follow the same rules.

=============================================

NEW	DTB I agree that duality is a deterrent to
thinking of the SOURCE and of the ONENESS.
BUT THAT DETERRENT, so important to us, does not obliterate it.
But your rejections do not always sound valid to me. Obviously
we employ different parameters of meaning and we ought to agree
that we will not agree on such a basis. Your responses need for
my understanding an explanation.

===========================================


<<The MONAD is defined as a "Life-unit" an indissoluble compound
in
manifestation of SPIRIT/MATTER (S.D. I 174-5fn) >>

JERRY: Technically, I don't agree that life-atom=monad.
Rather, a life-atom is a monadic expression or ray.
But then I like to remain consistent and I only use the
term monad for any indivisible unit or non-aggregate.
I think that when we throw the word monad around for
duads and triads we unnecessarily confuse things.


<< As a unit it is a "Self." >>

JERRY: Yes, and its existence is an illusion.
=============================

NEW	DTB	I use the nomenclature devised by H.P.B. and she does
offer explanations that ought to be applied to them if we are
trying to understand her Theosophy. If however we are trying to
change it around then, or adopt some other nomenclature, I find
myself lost and confused in trying to tailor refit to another
system. Further, the system you seem to have presented here, (or
adopted ?) does not, in my esteem, fully answer H.P.B.'s
premises.

=====================================



<< DTB I do not think that the fun and enjoyment are the
highest good.>>

JERRY: I think that seeing life as a serious set of tasks that
have to be accomplished is a sick/distorted
viewpoint. One of the chief characteristics of the bodhisattva,
BTW, is said to be joy.

===============================================
NEW DTB	"Each one to his own" -- is apparent here. What may
displease you might please me. But setting that aside, the
definition is not one of the rationale of decision but seems
rather, to be one of the definition of some kind of "pleasure" --
and that is of course, Kama, or an aspect of passion and desire.
If we add to that the question of continued life, what will be
the end of our existence ? I believe that MANAS is superior to
KAMA, and that Kama seeks to draw Manas (the reasoning faculty),
down to its emotional level and cause it to limit its reasoning
capacities to that level alone. It is a kind of bondage, in
which everything is then considered in terms of "likes and
dislikes," and not in terms of long-range conditions or results.
What happens to the Eternal Monad if it enters the Nirvana or
Moksha? Has anyone any description of experience there? H.P.B.
does speak of "returning Nirvanees" in S.D. II 79-80 94 110-111.
======================================

<<Personally I enjoy seeking to discover and follow the many
progressions of nature.>>

JERRY: Whoa! Don't enjoy this too much, or you may get to be like
me.


<<You are right the MONAD does not need to do anything. But
since the
support of manifestation and the progress of the
mind-humanity requires assistance, some of the MONADS voluntarily
serve as friends and guides. In the VOICE OF THE SILENCE the
final question asked of the Bodhisattva who is about to become a
BUDDHA covers this matter.>>

JERRY: Absolutely agreed.


<<<<JERRY: The Monad has no need for self knowledge. We do.
The business of know-thyself is for us humans.

DTB Agreed. But: WHY ?>>>>>

JERRY: I guess because the Monad is omniscient. Even
a Buddha is said to be omniscient, and a Monad is
above a Buddha.

====================================

NEW	DTB	I would say that the state of Buddhahood is one in which
the ETERNAL MONAD is able to perceive universally. Karma would
be an open book before him as needed. But the essential SELF is
still THAT which is able to confabulate with the REAL -- perhaps
that which we name (for lack of understanding, but relying on our
intuition) the ABSOLUTE.

==================================

<< DTB Can you prove there is no UNIVERSAL MONAD anywhere. >>

JERRY: Can you prove to me that there is? Proof is
always a Mexican standoff. I believe in reincarnation,
but I can't prove that one either.
=====================================

NEW DTB	Only by analogy and correspondence. No one can either
prove or teach another, but some ideas offered may enable the
enquirer to enlarge his purview and he educates himself. I have
always benefited from a discussion like this, and I thank you
Best wishes,
Dallas
PS	You mentioned the fact that we have a number of Tibetan
teachers and MSS which have come into our area. This is true.
But who among us can make sure that any translations we receive
or any teaching that is offered is per the original TEACHER who
is represented as Source for doctrines.
As I often say, the individual filter of a translator's mind adds
to or subtracts from the original teachings. If possible I would
always desire to go to the originals with a knowledge of the
language in which they were recorded. Any other way involves a
kind of "faith" and "trust" in the teacher or his/her
interpretation. One may of course apply this to the writings and
teachings of H.P.B. She invites this. Theosophy is marked by its
openness and the desire that people who approach it test it for
themselves.
If the Spirit that is said to be interior to us exists, then it
will determine for our embodied mind using either the VOICE OF
CONSCIENCE or the INTUITION if what is studied or thought of
approaches to the Laws and works of nature. Does it assist or
distort Nature's ways and processes?
Finally all wisdom is acquired through experience. Studying the
VOICE OF THE SILENCE I perceive that the moral/ethical dimension
is a most important factor.
D.
========================


Jerry S.