Theos-Talk Archives (April 2001 Message tt00084)

"Argument THROUGH SPACE [via telepathy or astral body??]with one who 
was in cold despair, and in a state of moral chaos was useless. So I 
determined to emerge [physically?]from the seclusion [?] of many 
years and spend some time with her to comfort her as well as I 
could. . . . I had come for a few days, but now find that I myself 
cannot endure for any length of time the stifling magnetism even of 
my own countrymen. I have seen some of our proud old Sikhs drunk and 
staggering over the marble pavement of their sacred Temple. . . .I 
turn my face homeward to-morrow." KH, Amritsar, October 29, 1880 
[Caps added.]

Dear Steve,

I will comment on several of your statements.

I had written:

"From Oct 1881 to early 1882 HPB describes
where KH was: 'K. H. or KootHoomi is now gone
to sleep for three months to prepare during this
Sumadhi or continuous trance state for his initiation,
the last but one. ... Poor K. H. his body is now lying
cold and stiff in a separate square building of stone.
...' Do you accept HPB's and KH's testimony that KH's
body was "lying cold and stiff in a separate square
building of stone" somewhere in Himalayan regions??"

To this, you replied in part:

"This is a statement that KH did in fact practice the
experiment of suspended animation. . . ."

"One incentive for doing this is visions of an
extraordinary nature in addition to 'astral' visits to
terrestrial places like Amritsar, etc."

"I had formerly doubted that he did this because of the
danger of the experiment." 

Steve, let me try to get your "take" on this subject.

Are you saying that you accept that KH's physical
body was actually "lying cold and stiff in a separate square
building of stone" somewhere in Himalayan regions from
late September 1881 through early January 1882??

What HPB said above about KH's physical condition
is also to be found in various
Mahatma Letters from Morya of this time period.

Also when KH was on this "retreat" there are indications
in the Mahatma Letters that he was NOT in "communication"
with the outer world. Also there are no known reports of
his being seen in "astral form" during this three month
period of time. Therefore this would tend to negate your
statement that in such a condition KH would be taking
"'astral' visits to terrestrial places." 

Now, Steve, let us consider your next statement:

You first quote me:

"In previous discussions you said you accepted
that Koot Hoomi was actually & physically at Amritsar
and the Golden Temple in 1880. [See Mahatma Letter No.
4]"

To this, you now add:

"That was based on the deduction that KH did NOT do
suspended animation experiments, and therefore must
have been there in person and not in a vision if his
visit extended over several days. Unfortunately, as
you have proved, my deduction was incorect, and it is
therefore impossible to be sure whether this was a
corporeal visit or a visionary experience."

Again let me try to understand your thinking on these
matters.

You seem to be saying that when HPB specifically writes
that KH's physical body was in "suspended animation" then
you believe that was his actual condition.

But then you seem to suggest that when he writes 
that in Oct. 1880 he was at Amritsar and the Golden
Temple, that in fact he might have been in suspended
animation and only his astral body was at Amritsar.
But if you accept at face value what HPB, KH, and M
say about KH's condition during Sept 1881 thru Jan. 1882,
why not also accept at face value the info in KH's letters
about him being in his physical body at Amritsar and other
locales during Oct. 1880??

There is nothing in the letters of KH and HPB from
1880 to indicate that he was in "suspended animation"
at this time. In fact, everything shows that he
was physically in Kashmir, Ladakh, Toling, and Amritsar.
He even apparently sent Sinnett a telegram from Jhelum
on Oct. 27, 1880. This was just prior to his visit to
Amritsar.

I would think that Paul Johnson would not accept at face value the
"suspended animation" story of KH's physical body being
in some Himalayan retreat. This would be most likely disinformation
by HPB, KH and M.

And I would think Paul would be more inclined to believe that
maybe ...just possibly....the account of KH being at Amritsar
around Oct. 29 might be actually true....and the most likely
candidate for this "Master" at the Golden Twmple being
Thakur Singh, the Sikh. But we will let Paul speak for himself,
if he is inclined to do so.

Steve, you also write:

"The important thing should not be what I personally
accept (which is a matter of little consequence), but
what are the facts."

Ah, yes, there is the rub. But what are facts, pray tell.
If I were a betting man, I would probably wager that what
you consider "facts" in theosophical matters is not what 
Paul Johnson considers "facts". Or what Peter Merriott considers 
"facts". From being on the various theosophical discussion lists for 
a good number of years, it is quite obvious that "facts" are in the
eye of the beholder.

So was KH physically on the Indian subcontinent in October 1880?
And was KH physically in some Himalayan retreat in late 1881/early
1882?

Daniel