Theos-Talk Archives (April 2001 Message tt00076)

Friday, April 13, 2001

Dear Katinka and Jerry:

May I intrude?

I do agree with you as to the circling and the concentration of
common interest you notice.

I think that the study of Theosophy does this for all who
approach it and are willing to take some of its doctrines, and
research them.

I have found it over time, to be self-proving. It draws ALL
ASPECTS of Nature and the cooperative advance of all beings
together in a logic that is marvelous to behold. I find I am in
accord with the idea of universal as well as integrated personal
Karma. The potential of becoming truly WISE in a Universal sense
attracts me.

The similes of our highly complex physical body and what we are
able to see of the Universe lead me to believe we are only seeing
a bit of the surface of Reality.
Some notes inserted below:


Best wishes,

As always,

Dallas

==============================

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 8:13 AM
To: Theosophy Study List

Subject: Response to Katinka

<<<<<Jerry wrote:
> According to my Webster, progress is "a moving forward."
> Thus progress is one possible type of Motion, and Space
> and Motion form the continuum of this 7-plane solar system.
Well, but it seems to me that the kind of progress we are talking
about is
not really a moving from anything towards anything, but like I
said, an
unveiling. >>>>>>

Katinka, G de Purucker, while explaining HPB's Rounds
and Root Races, describes an Arc of Descent from spirit
into matter (first half of a Round) as an evolution
and an Arc of Ascent from matter back into spirit (second
half of a Round) as in involution. His involution is,
in fact, an unfolding or unveiling just as you say. I
agree completely with your "unveiling" but I am having
trouble seeing where "progress" comes into play except
relatively within the countless minor spirals of a Round.
Unveiling, or as de Purucker has it - unfolding, is a
process of outward expression of what already exists
inwardly. This is close to the Buddhist sense of what
is going on.

===========================

DTB	In the S.D. I 200-202 H.P.B. explains these two arcs that
comprise the whole of the evolutionary cycle. The fist half is
the "descent of SPIRIT into Matter" -- so that both Spirit and
Matter profit from the contact and the intelligence (Embodied
Mind or Kama-Manas) which is the result of that.
That (as I understand it) Kama-Manas having achieved a sense of
continuing identity (which is borrowed from the "Ray" of
Spiritual Wisdom-Mind -- Buddhi-Manas, or Higher Manas)
re-ascends by its own voluntary will to a full coadunition with
the Buddhi-Manas. Or, in other words it is reabsorbed into its
Source (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) but it adds to that Source the memory
it has of all the spiritual experiences and thoughts that its
pilgrimage in and through this particular grade of Matter has
enabled it to have. So it is not "extinguished," or non-essed.
Or, Nirvana, as a "state," does not eliminate the Kama-Manas or
the compound aggregation of "Monads of lesser experience" that
have clustered during the Manvantaric cycle around the Human
MONAD. Each of those (being immortal in themselves) continues
its own "pilgrimage." In effect we have a constant process of
aggregation and then individual leavings of the "Monads of lesser
experience," which apparently serve as what I would call "the
bridges of Karma" between various advanced centers of
experience/instruction. (Human Monads) . This would then satisfy
the teaching that all Monads are immortal, all Monads are on
their own individual "pilgrimage," and all monads participate at
some time or another in all experiences. And this constant
movement, transfer and acquisition of experience is regulated by
the great sensitive laws of Universal Karma.
There appears to be a wide divergence between Kama-Manas (Lower
Manas) and Buddh-Manas, for the "Lower-Manas" (Kama-Manas) to be
able to 'ascend' to the state and condition of the Buddhi-Manas,
it has to 'purify' itself by adopting voluntarily the discipline
of the ethico-moral Universe (work with KARMA and not against it,
blend with humanity and the Universe and not oppose them, be
kind, generous, brotherly, cooperative, etc... and not overvalue
or overemphasize its present (and temporary) personal identity
(I-AM-I) and its sense of 'isolation.'). Does this make sense ?

Best wishes,

Dallas

------------------------------

<<<<<<Jerry:

> I can't help smile at your automatic assumption that a
> re-descent may not be "necessary." It is just these kinds
> of assumptions about reality that I was trying to point
> out. I obviously failed. I blame myself. The way we all
> tend to view the world is so ingrained into us that
> it will likely take a cattle prod to loosen it.
Hm.>>>

Nothing personal. We really only have a few choices here.
We can say that the Monad never repeats itself and that
once the lessons learned during its peregrinations in
this manvantara are done, then it stays perfect forever.
This would be similar to the Christian idea of one
life on earth followed by an eternal heaven. Its not
only illogical, but also not terribly attractive to me.

DTB	If the MONAD IS, FROM THE FIRST, AN ETERNAL ENTITY, if it is
a blend of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT and PRIMORDIAL MATTER, then it
represents the two polar opposites of existence. However for
that to act or perceive, it seems to me, a third factor is
essential, and that is MIND -- or, a "ray" of the UNIVERSAL
MIND - MAHAT. This being directly related as a radiation of the
ABSOLUTE, always stands mid-way between SPIRIT (or ATMA), and
MATTER ( or BUDDHI). In other words it owes its independence to
the innate condition of our Universe where every "life-unit"
(Monad) is an immortal force (or entity) with exactly the same
potential as all the rest. To form the cooperatives we see
around us mirrored in atoms, molecules, cells, and other
structures extending to the Planets, Suns and Solar Systems -- as
distributed in our Universe, and , to be also in constant
magnetic relations with the rest, only a consistent and
completely sensitive LAW must be present.
Is it not our embodied mind that, sensing its apparent
separateness, claims to be able to oppose the sweep of unity in
the universe -- as a necessity for the preservation of its
temporary identity till the gates of Death are reached? And
then -- What? The future usually becomes speculative based on
such information or doctrines as have been promulgated in the
past. Is it not our task to investigate their accuracy?
It is the MIND that records and registers all the experiences of
the immortal MONAD which as H.P.B. says in S.D. I 174-5 fn, is
"unaffected" by any and all events around it. In effect, it is
both KARMA and the RECORD OF ALL KARMIC EVENTS, past, present and
future (as the future effects are ineradicably wrapped up in the
antecedent causes of the past and present.).
Buddhi-Manas (the superior, spiritual, law-abiding Mind) is
immortal and its contrasting self, mirrored in the planes of
matter, finds itself limited by the memory of compound errors,
and ignorances, and false illusions. This in theosophy is
evidence of the power that our Kama-Manas has over our thinking.
But its desire for isolation rejects the need for cooperation and
the response to the support that Nature provides to it unasked
and unsought.
This is my 'speculation' and I may be quite wrong in these
surmises, but I would like you to consider them and see if there
is any merit to them..

Dal

-----------------------
The other choice is that it sends out a "ray" to
peregrinate over and over again without beginning or
end. This idea is attractive to me, and it eliminates
the nasty beginning-but-no-ending business. However, it
begs the question of necessity.
Exactly what is this
Cycle of Necessity that Blavatsky describes? Well, its
part of a 3rd choice, one in which life is seen as
a game of self-expression. In this option the Monad
sends out a "ray" at the beginning of a manvantara,
runs it through a long Cycle of Necessity, in which
karmic rules apply, and at the end of the manvantara
the "ray" is absorbed back into its parent Monad, as a
thank-you-very-much-and-gee-that-was-so-much-fun-lets-
do-it-all-again-tomorrow kind of thing.

DTB	As I understand it the CYCLE OF NECESSITY is descriptive of
the pilgrimage of the 7-fold Man as it struggles to spiritualize
its independence and make of isolation that Kama imposes on it as
an attitude, a cooperative attempt to harmonize as far as it can,
itself and surroundings with the laws and purposes of great
nature. In the S.D. the section GODS, MONADS AND ATOMS Vol. I
pp. 610 et seq. seems to me to provide an answer to this.

=================================


<<Well, no, I was not thinking about time at all, when writing
the above. >>

But it all hangs on the fundamental premise of time.

<<I was looking at the experience of this life - and the fact
that learning
is possible and can be more than the adding of fact and ideas.>>

Learning, by whatever method, is a time-dependent process.
So, we learn or unfold or unveil or whatever for a whole
manvantara. Then what? What happens to all of this unveiling
and learning during pralaya? I agree that we are learning
right now, within this manvantaric experience. But what
happens to "we" during pralaya? What happens when time stops,
when the clock finally runs out, or when t=0? Then Motion=0
too and where does all that learning go?

DTB	If we maintain that the only plane of existence is the
material and the physical that we know this is a reasonable
query, but, if we consider the astral, psychic, vital, mental and
spiritual planes as additional areas of experience [ S.D. I
157, 181, II 596 ] we have the vista far expanded and extended
into the future and even the area of "meditative introspection"
called Devachan and its simile Nirvana, during the periods of
Pralaya and even of Mahapralaya.

===============================================

<< When there is insight (deep down kind) and love (the glue of
the
universe) it seems to me that atma-buddhi-manas is not composite
in the
sense that it falls apart.>>

Atma-buddhi-manas, and even atma itself, will all fall
apart during mahapralaya, when our whole 7-plane solar
system falls apart, decays, and dies. Atma is said to
be on the 3rd plane down. Buddhi is said to be on the
causal plane, and of course manas is on the mental
plane. Only atma will survive a pralaya when the four
lower planes fall apart and die, and atma itself will
fall apart along with the upper three planes during
mahapralaya.

DTB	That is not what H.P.B. says in her article ISIS UNVEILED
AND THE VISHISTADVAITA [ BCW Vol. 7, p 50, ULT H.P.B. Articles
III p. 265 ] She is quite positive that the compound
ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS is not destroyed but returns to its appointed
duty when a new Manvantara opens. In other words Nature does not
destroy the achievements of the least of its parts, but always
supports them and helps them to move on. None of the Universal
principles is ever totally eliminated. If they are given the
qualities and properties of eternity and immortality then there
in no MAHAPRALAYA however great in terms of our rating of time
that would ever see the TOTAL UNIVERSE involved in those passing
and cyclic events. Those limitations of time and activity are
always PARTIAL to the TOTAL UNIVERSE.

================================================

<<If we can look at the analogue to sleep and waking (as an
analogue for
manvantara - pralaya): however much my sense of me is gone in
sleep, and in
my case this is certainly the case - when I awake, yesterday is
gone only in
the sense that my memory of it is hard to recall (my memory is
BAD). But my
learning (of for instance how I deal with my pupils) does not
start all over
again. This leads to the conclusion that there is something that
lasts, even
if memory goes out the window.
Katinka>>

The sleep and waking analogy does hold. The atma carries
us through a pralaya and the Monad through a mahapralaya
except for one very important difference. The atma, being
within our solar system, in still in time, whereas the
Monad is outside of our solar system and outside of time
and space altogether - it is in a place that is called,
for lack of anything better, non-duality. So the whole
idea of "carrying over" or of "progress" or of skandhas
or shistas no longer applies to the Monad. The best that
I have been able to come up with is a "sending" of a
"ray" and its later "absorption." How this effects the
Monad, which is already perfect and eternal and infinite
and in no need whatever of any "necessity" is mute and
I am left with a grand and glorious gaming. Even my
"sending" and "absorbing" are time-dependent processes
that I am using poetically because they can't really
apply.
=======================================

DTB	As I understand it, the present Earth and Solar system are
our locus of responsibility. When in due course, we have done
all that our duty requires of us, we as MONAD will know where
else we may be needed to assist as one of Nature's Agents.

ATMA as a UNIVERSAL ONENESS is not describable by us, nor
limited. Nor dos it ever "cease to be."
We, from the present perspective of our embodied materially
encased minds have not terms or similes to describe IT. HPB in
the S.D. did not attempt to do that, nor did the Buddha.
Dal
======================================


Jerry S.