Theos-Talk Archives (April 2001 Message tt00068)

Dear Katinka:

I think the idea that we are immortals and that our CONSCIOUSNESS
cannot be abolished is the primary hurdle.

It is not the "Lower Manas" that is an "entity" it is more a
state of mind created by our own desires and the limitations of
this life-time.

If we (as Lower Manas) could "rise up to the level of the
Higher-Manas) we would be able then, to see the UNIVERSE and all
its harmony, and we would have few problems left.

The idea that we cannot escape our errors and faults and the bad
choices we made in ignorance or folly in the past is also a great
stumbling block. The "Lower-Manas" state wants to avoid these or
escape their immanence. But once we place this inevitable
consequence on the same level as our immortality, the fear of
consequences begins to vanish and disappear. We can assume the
position that we can meet any situation and we will live through
it.

I wonder if this is not one of the difficulties we all have with
understanding and then accepting the concepts of universal Law
and justice which demands of us that we do the work of
harmonizing and balancing our "past" ?

Best wishes, (and excuse the interruption),

Dal

PS	I have enjoyed reading these comments you are exchanging.

As H.P.B. explains in S.D. I 174-5 fn, the divine immortal MONAD
does nothing. It serves the accumulated aggregate of "Monads of
lesser experience" as a centre which does not constantly shift
and appear to be illusory. It is the "Monads of lesser
experience" which provide by their nature and density the
"vehicles" for the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS (of Man).

In the manifested Universe does not the Central Spiritual Sun (as
a concept) provide us with the same idea of stability in the
midst of constant and varying motions of a wide diversity of
beings?

There are some who would try to argue the stability of the
immortal MONAD away. But as a contrast, even the concept of such
a condition of stability or of a Being which can live in that
CENTER and also BE THAT CENTER, demonstrates, logically, its
necessary existence. One cannot have unlimited and universal
motion, convergence, divergence, and magnetic fields of great
complexity, unless there is at least ONE POINT (in Manifestation)
which is totally immovable.

And we have to take into account the rest of the "Principles," be
they Universal or Human.

D


====================================



-----Original Message-----
From: Katinka Hesselink [mailto:katinka_hesselink@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:18 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: Katinka on Progress.

Hi Jerry,

> Subject: to Katinka on Progress
> <<Well, this is a difficult subject. But it occurs to me that
progress
> is an
> unveiling of the divine. So that in the end the
divine/universal is so
> near
> us that we are it. I don't see any reason why this should make
a
> redescend
> into matter necessary, as Jerry seems to do.>>
Jerry wrote:
> According to my Webster, progress is "a moving forward."
> Thus progress is one possible type of Motion, and Space
> and Motion form the continuum of this 7-plane solar system.
Well, but it seems to me that the kind of progress we are talking
about is
not really a moving from anything towards anything, but like I
said, an
unveiling.
Jerry:
> I can't help smile at your automatic assumption that a
> redesent may not be "necessary." It is just these kinds
> of assumptions about reality that I was trying to point
> out. I obviously failed. I blame myself. The way we all
> tend to view the world is so ingrained into us that
> it will likely take a cattle prod to loosen it.
Hm.
> The idea of "necessary" is all about having to DO, or
> in this case, having already DONE something. Maybe its
> my study of physics that have helped me?? I don't know,
> but my whole argument here is based on the concept of
> time and how it works (its almost equal to Blavatsky's
> Motion) and this seems to go right by everyone. OK,
> so once we understand time as a continuum in which
> Motion occurs, then what happens when time stops? What
> happens to DO and DONE and NECESSITY when there is
> no time at all?
Well, no, I was not thinking about time at all, when writing the
above. I
was looking at the experience of this life - and the fact that
learning is
possible and can be more than the adding of fact and ideas. When
there is
insight (deep down kind) and love (the glue of the universe) it
seems to
me that atma-buddhi-manas is not composite in the sense that it
falls
apart. If we can look at the analogue to sleep and waking (as an
analogue
for manvantara - pralaya): however much my sense of me is gone in
sleep,
and in my case this is certainly the case - when I awake,
yesterday is
gone only in the sense that my memory of it is hard to recall (my
memory
is BAD). But my learning (of for instance how I deal with my
pupils) does
not start all over again. This leads to the conclusion that there
is
something that lasts, even if memory goes out the window.

Katinka

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