Theos-Talk Archives (March 2001 Message tt00111)

Sunday, March 18, 2001


Dear Mauri


Lets see:

1.	Nature and its laws that support us and our living, and those
that we affect are already all around us. We live in Nature and
It lives in and through us. It is essential to us, and we in our
turn are essential to it.

2.	Those who desire to know this marvelous and interactive,
cooperative system, study Nature in order to secure the
information already there. For every student as "doors open"
there is a sense of unique discovery. But, since the many routes
to such knowledge may have already been done, there is the added
safety (for those who want it) of being able to find out how
earlier students have discovered and fared, This is what
Theosophy is: a presentation of a "map" which details facts in
every department of Nature which have been found, checked,
verified and then used, and the results made available to us.
(S.D. I 272-9)

3.	The "goal" is not Moksha or Nirvana, *which is retirement from
the world and the entry by the perfected Personality into a
selfish and isolated state of what can only be broadly described
as a "SELFISH and ISOLATED BLISS." That is the (temporary) end
result of the SELFISH "PATH" which serves only the individual who
desires it. [ The VOICE OF THE SILENCE gives details on this, as
well as on, a superior Path, named "Renunciation," whereby
continued service to our fellow men and to Nature is
contemplated. It says that when this is followed it leads to
"Para-Nirvana." (That which is beyond Nirvana, "at the close of
Kalpas without number." One might surmise that all Beings
(Monads) are able to share in this together as a community of
mutually supportive individuals. This sounds very much like the
collective work of the "Builders" of a new Universe as described
in the pages of S.D., Vol. 1. )

4.	There is in reality only one "Path" that leads out of sorrow
and pain. It is the path of compassion. To be compassionate,
one has to be WISE. Therefore, the faithful 'Student of Nature"
is first a student of his own psychic and spiritual constitution.
He has to master those details (and their interaction with others
around him) with absolute certainty, and develop the power to
control this "Lower Nature" (the PERSONALITY) at all times.
This is the sole path that Nature offers to all its constituent
MONADS. Every great Adept, Master, Mahatma, Buddha has followed
this, and taught it. Buddha in the DHAMMAPADA, Krishna in the
BHAGAVAD GITA, Jesus in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT, and Mme.
Blavatsky in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. They have all taught THE
SAME THING. It is the path of true morality and brotherhood for
all creatures.

5.	To us, as presently constituted, ( 6 "principles" surrounding
the ATMA which is their synthesis), and, with a very strong
emotional and desire nature that often over-rules the mind, this
sounds like duress, like an unfair oppression: "What" we
exclaim, "I have to be GOOD ? Can't I be naughty once in a while
?" Nature answers: "Whatever you do is counted as your Karma,
and you will inevitably, some time or later, have to bear the
full consequences of anything you choose and say or do."

6.	So how does anyone ever get to Nirvana, or Moksha and become a
blissful Nirvanee? How does one stop the world in order t "get
off?" The answer can be found in the VOICE, the BHAGAVAD GITA and
the DHAMMAPADA, as well as in the 'SERMON ON THE MOUNT." They
all offer the same general advice. Purify and control your lower
nature. Be harmless, charitable and do your own duty -- not
that of another. [ Ah ! DUTY ! What is that ? ]

7.	KARMA means simply and always: ACTION and its consequent
equal REACTION. Its "long arm" is a manifestation in action of
this concept. Our "dues" are only settled by us, sooner or
later, though it may take many reincarnations or even many
Manvantaras,

8.	If you examine yourself -- your intuition, your power of
thinking, your power of feeling and desiring, and always ask Who?
Why? And "What is the result?" one is likely to be able to
determine for themselves what is the nature of their own
CONSCIOUSNESS (or, "seeing along with.") If we assume there is
an universal, impersonal, "right" way of doing anything, then,
what in us sees that? If "the right way" is compliance with
nature's laws, then applying the search tools of the questions
MENTIONED ABOVE, we will be able to ARRIVE AT REASONABLE ANSWERS.
But, we have to do the work.

Please see additional notes below,

Dal

=========================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:07 AM
To: basic@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-basic] long arm of Karma?


subject: long arm of Karma?

RE:

[bn-sd] apparent contradictions?
Fri, 16 Mar 2001 05:34:38 -0800

"Mauri" <mhart@idirect.ca>

wrote partly:

At any rate, if some choose not to enter
Nirvanic states, (as per the literature), one might
wonder (?) about their motivation and
background as compared to those who do enter
it---not that I haven't read about the altruistic
motives of the abstainees. And how many
might enter and how many might delay, in
over-all terms? So are the non-abstainees, in
some sense, blind bats compared to the
abstainees? I wonder what is really going on.
=========cut

And I suppose the study of Theosophy is all
about "what is really going on." So if one asks
WHY study theosophic subjects, I wonder if a
common response might include intentions to
learn about the nature of Reality as well as
something about just HOW one might attain to
Ideal or Idealistic States of Life (at whatever
level) which, to me, sounds as if the motivation
to study Theosophy, from the beginning, seems
often geared toward (in some sense?) the
attainment of Devachanic and Nirvanic states,
which kind of primary motivation in
"theosophic" terms (it would seem?) could (?)
produce a form of Karma all its own?:
=======================

DTB	Don't confound Devachan (an intermediate state of spiritual
meditation between two lives), and Nirvana, which lasts much
longer and is a spiritually SELFISH STATE . It is the result of
an absolute control over KAMA, the DESIRE principle. It is NOT
the conjoining of our Personal CONSCIOUSNESS with the
CONSCIOUSNESS of the divine and universal ATMA.

======================================


That is, has anybody heard or read about
anything along the lines of "Higher" Karma,
(say?), or forms of Karma that might be
(tentatively?) defined by that which might (for
example?) bring one back from Nirvana (?) to
forms of re-experience, (as per, to quote from
Dallas's post):

=========================================

DTB	Karma is karma and there is no "higher" or "lower." Law is
Law and there are no loopholes to squiggle through, or hide from
its universal purview and power to adjust effects to the
Personality (even if that succeeds in eventually reaching and
terminating the selfish and isolated "bliss" of NIRVANA).

===============================================.


"Mr. Judge wrote a passage on this in the
EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY, p. 28. In one of
the FORUM Answers he says: "...if the Adept
voluntarily takes the delights, pleasures and
powers referred to, he is compelled after
millions of years of enjoyment, to re-enter
objective nature at the elemental stage...The
whole matter is a reference to a very obscure
doctrine, but little known..." [ Judge, Forum
Answers, p. 120 -- ULT ]"

Or, are most people perfectly satisfied with
attaining to "delights, pleasures and powers"
as long as those can be enjoyed for at least
"millions of years"???

===================================

DTB	As you seem to suspect, such a goal is paltry compared with
the universal field of study and work that the Universe offers.

Theosophy does not recommend Nirvana. Have you read through the
VOICE OF THE SILENCE (available 'on-line' through BLAVATSKY.NET)

==================================

Is that what the study of
Theosophy, the Secret Doctrine, etc., is all
about, for many? Seems as if there's something
missing from that equation, to my way of
thinking. It would seem as if there is always
something that might appear to have More
Meaning and more Lasting Value, but is always
out of reach, apparently: And is it that when
one finally gets to that Lasting Value, it becomes
apparent that something Else is out of reach?

=========================

DTB	Good thinking I would say, you have the right idea.

Let not our present embodied, limited concept of time and space
daunt you, I (or anyone) acting from the motives of a purified
personality would choose to work forever, if that proves to be
of real use to all the rest of Nature around us.

Making such a choice, one might ask themselves: "am I in any way
bowing to coercion?" Speaking personally, I cannot find that
factor. In no way is my independence or "free-will" diminished,
curtailed or disrupted. No "Higher Authority" ever seeks to
cause me to deviate from a path I choose. In effect, having
chosen such a path, the devotee of Nature, lives on a very
knife-edge of constant decision, knowing as one does that, the
rules and laws of Nature invoke Karma at any deviation he may
make from the TRUE and the CHARITABLE SERVICE he can offer.
Seeking for one's true DUTY is the hardest thing in the world.
Perhaps the hardest thing in Theosophy is to realize that one has
very little "leeway." This may very well highly displease our
"Desire nature." It feels the bonds of constraint. But it also
lacks the ability to project forward (in anticipation) a panorama
of possible results from its actions when motivated by
selfishness alone. The Mind has this faculty, but it belongs to
the Spiritual, the Individual aspect of our permanency as MONADS.
Its attachment to the Personality is of the nature of a tutelage.
It sacrifices by mirroring itself in the Personality, the highest
aspect of which is Kama -- thus forming the Kama-Manas (or Lower
Mind). Bt the tutelage also consists in close conferences (on a
spiritual plane) with the embodied "Lower Mind" when it sends
warnings at times of crisis and decision, which some call
intuitions, (as in the Voice of Conscience)..

===============================================


If so, Karma would seem to have a very long
arm, allowing for forms of "delights, pleasures
and powers" (at whatever Nirvanic level?) only
at one's own expense? And are many Nirvanic
experiences really forms of "Higher" Karmic
attainments, really, in the end (?), even though
Theosophic literature would suggest (?) that
Nirvana is an optional (?) state after one has
successfully eradicated Karma, (or something
like that?).
======================================

DTB	To continually review the process of progress in one's life
in terms of enjoyment and pleasure is to further entrench our
reliance on the Kama (desire) principle alone. Kama is only half
of the equation. It is balanced by BUDDHI (or the wisdom
acquired by us -- and the rest of the universe -- or, in
another way, we might say: folly is balanced by wisdom; and the
MIND principle in the middle, between BUDDHI and KAMA, is alone
(because of its detachment) able to decide between them. Hence
choosing and morality are inevitable.

We ARE THAT CHOOSING MIND at all times. We, THE HIGHER MIND
(Buddhi-Manas), apprehend Universal Wisdom. As the "We" is
internal to every human, that WISDOM is said to arise from within
and can be compared with expressions of WISDOM from any source
itself us. WISDOM always coincides with WISDOM. The Principle
of Buddhi is the 1st principle to form a "vehicle" for the Ray of
the UNIVERSAL ONE SPIRIT which is the Source of our existence.

These 3 constitute the puzzle we as Humans are presently, as a
"race" (a period of time for the whole of mankind) are involved
in, as a total, as well as individually. It is a great period of
testing for all mankind. [ By the way, did you eve read the
first of the DUNE books by Frank Howard, I believe. ? A curious
test had been devised to determine if a young adult human was
actually a being in whom MIND was the controller, or whether the
"animal instinct" ruled ? From the physical plane point of view
(that of animal INSTINCT) , that was in itself frightening; but
those who kept themselves MENTALLY under control passed. --
Perhaps a very physical representation of what may be going on
psychologically. Nature is a lot kinder, but just as
demanding. ]

===================================


However, more-specifically, are there FORMS
of Karma remaining, that would eventually bring
one back from Nirvana?

================================

DTB	Some time back I posted the explanation offered by H.P.B.:
That every impulse of thought or desire affected all the
"little-lives" (MONADS of lesser experience) of our present
personal nature. They were either enhanced or distorted by the
moral quality of our thought-feelings. Those, after a time, left
us and went out along their own Karmic paths into the Universe.
But the centre of attraction when they were "modified," was US.

Eventually, sooner or later, they return to us, and again serve
as the "vehicles" we use. The enhancement or the distortion then
makes itself felt (as we have to make use of them) -- as added or
diminished capacity -- to respond to the trials of life that
Karma places before us constantly. The expression "My own shall
come back to me," illustrates this. This change in the nature of
the "little-lives" is the Karmic impress we have to now
straighten and restore to harmony.

Have you heard of an early Theosophical book titled: LIGHT ON
THE PATH ? At the end of the book there is a short essay on
KARMA. It is most valuable to read and keep in mind.

================================

If so, could it be that
many (all?) Nirvanic states are really, (in
Retrospect, at any rate?) forms of Maya, at
some Higher level?

===============================

DTB	Exactly. The delusion is that selfishness (in this case the
bliss of isolation from the struggles and sorrows of the Earth)
can be made ETERNAL as a condition. Nature is far vaster than
any individual, whether in our out of Nirvana or Moksha. At the
appropriate time "When his store of merit is exhausted, the
Nirvanee will return to Earth in a future Manvantara, to work
with all his erstwhile companions, who by now have reached the
stage from which he had "left." [ see S.D. II 79-80, 94,
109-10 ] It is said that to do this with the most constructive
basis, he the returning Nirvanee, as a Monad with vast
experience, starts working with the building of the elemental
planes of being.

=============


One might wonder how
conscious one can be about one's choices here,
there, everywhere: especially as it would seem
as if the measure of that CONSCIOUSNESS
about choices is a Key Factor in everything.

======================================

DTB	There is an ancient saying that goes: "All beings are
CONSCIOUS, but not all beings are conscious OF SELF."

This is important because in another ancient quote ( GITA NOTES
by W. Q. Judge, pp. 98-100) one finds the expression: "The ONE
CONSCIOUSNESS (of a human) pierces up and down the 7 planes of
Being, and serves to unite the memory of every experience --
whether conscious or unconscious -- on any of them."

While every MONAD is conscious on its plane, (they fill all SPACE
everywhere) it is not self-conscious until it reaches the human
stage. From that point the Human-Monad struggles to reach out to
and embrace the whole UNIVERSE -- UNIVERSAL SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS is
the ultimate result. In this sense, the highest goal, is defined
(in one way) as "union with the Divine in the whole of NATURE
(Universe)." We are given an illustration of this kind of BEING,
appropriately named GREAT SACRIFICE, in S.D. I 207-210.

Hope this is of help

BEST WISHES AS ALWAYS.
Dal


Mauri