Theos-Talk Archives (February 2001 Message tt00117)

Saturday, February 17, 2001


Dear Friend:


May I insert some notes below in the body of your inquiry?

But also., let me make a few prefatory notes for our better
understanding.

Theosophy is not a religion (to which people down the ages have
subscribed without much analysis or understanding:

In regard to any religions it might be asked:

Is it a set of comfortable ethics?

Is the basis for ethical precepts explained ?

Is adherence without understanding (as a social more ) insisted
on?

Are explanations for the tenets and dogmas of the "religion"
withheld from the average inquirer, or restricted to a sect, or
available only to the Initiated and Pledged?

In other words are IGNORANCE, BLIND FAITH, and SUBMISSION TO
THOSE WHO CLAIM AUTHORITY, part of the observance demanded of an
adherent ?

THEOSOPHY is a very ancient system of looking independently, and
without any submission or blind adherence, to any sectarian or
cult-like claims, dogmas or dicta. It therefore crosses all the
lines and limits of any sect or religion and looks at them all as
impartially, and as universally as is possible.

It aims to place before ANY INQUIRER the basic ideas and truths
which he/she may independently arrive at fair and impartial
conclusions for themselves. In this respect it is like SCIENCE
which examines all phenomena and seeks for the Laws inherent in
NATURE (the Universe, our World) with a view to discovering what
the basis for existence is, and how evolution and the records of
past history accord with the concept that Nature's Laws already
cover

Theosophy claims no authority, but seeks to make plain the
meaning of ancient myths, legends, sciences, arts, and thoughts
insofar as they open to our grasp the Source of Life, the Reason
for our existence, and the potential of a future GOAL to which
all mankind may aspire and grasp with the individual
understanding of a FREE MIND.

SPACE -- UNIVERSAL LAW -- UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- these three
seem to denominate 3 important aspects of our living. All
events, whether historical or contemporary, seem to fall within
its parameters. These concepts begin with (as essential
meta-physical data), facts, truths, and records however veiled
and misty, which any FREE-THINKING mind can understand.

It neither seeks to impose any vocabulary, nor any fixed method
of thought (or belief, or faith) on any one. It therefore
presents a record in all departments of nature of the history of
the development and the inter-action of these various
departments of Life and Being.

Why should THEOSOPHY be considered at all? Because the
truth=seeking reader will discover that it presents ideas that
serve to link Science with Philosophy and Religion.

Also it sets no barriers or pre-conceived limits either to
origins, procedures or final solutions to our situation as
free-thinking men and women in a world that seems to us to be
either "chaotic," partially lawful, or fully LAWFUL, under the
reign of an impartial justice, which fairly returns to every
CHOOSER the exact results of their choices.

Please see below

Best wishes,

Dallas

======================


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott G [mailto:drpepper1220@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 3:31 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Survey



I'm looking for someone to help answer a few voluntary questions
for
a study I'm doing for my own sake. (I'm not out to preach or
convert
anyone!)

Please email me privately with your answers. If anonymity is a
concern, get an anonymous email account from hotmail.com or some
other service and use an alias.

DTB	Not necessary, as Theosophy is for everyone.


I am curious about the intensity and nature of feelings
associated
with your religion.

DTB	The word "feelings" is a kind of "trigger" word as it
embodies usually the idea that one's "feelings" are to be
preserved, shock-proofed, and respected as "private territory.":
If one examines the part played in HISTORY by feelings as
(between rulers and the ruled, or ruler and other rulers) one
finds that usually these result in oppression and war, and loss
for all involved.
This does not mean that "feelings" are to either obliterated or
disregarded. "Feelings" are expressions (usually) of
self-devised desires, passions, or hopes. The controller of
unbridled "feelings" is essentially the Mind -- a kind of
superior tool which the REAL INDIVIDUAL uses to control emotion,
thought, words and acts.


If you would be so kind, please answer the following questions
with
as much detail as you prefer. These are very personal questions,
however, I would hope you are completely honest.

The following questions will refer to the word "true," I
define "true" here as being "the correct religion/scripture,"
"the
divine plan in its fullness," or "the favored path back to
God/divinity with all the blessings possible in the afterlife"

DTB	A correct use of the word TRUE is not based on any scripture
(which after the passage of years are generally transformed into
opinions). TRUE as I understand it is TRUE FOR EVERYONE, AT ALL
TIMES, AND IN ALL PLACES. It is UNIVERSAL and IMPARTIAL, also it
is fair just and accurate as to the just return to any chooser or
creator of his/her energy spent in generating a cause which
affects others. In other words each action of a free-will
CHOOSER will invoke from NATURE a response of a magnitude equal
to that spent, and, it will return to him/her without any
variance. Mitigation may be obtained by an attempt to redress
any evil or suffering induced on others by such personal choices.


Please submit your results to drpepper1220@yahoo.com. (Scott G)
If I
write an essay about it (ensuring anonymity of course) I will
post
the URL in this forum for you to examine.
------------------------

1. Have you read a good portion of the scriptures or canon which
your
religion offers?

DTB	I HAVE READ, STUDIED AND THOUGHT INDEPENDENTLY ABOUT THE
FACTS, METHODS, CONCLUSIONS offered in the ORIGINAL LITERATURE of
THEOSOPHY which for our present era, has been condensed and
written by Mme. H. P.. Blavatsky, starting with articles in 1875,
and proceeding to books (ISIS UNVEILED - 1877 ; THE SECRET
DOCTRINE -- 1888; THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- 1889; THE VOICE OF
THE SILENCE -- 1889) numerous articles were also written by her
and published chiefly in THE THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, THE PATH, LE
LOTUS BLEU, and other journals -- recently these have been
brought together chronologically in a 15 vol. set entitled
BLAVATSKY: COLLECTED WORKS. Other books in which her writings
are to be found are THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY TO
MR. A. P. SINNETT; A MODERN PANARION, FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY,
CAVES AND JUNGLES OF HINDOOSTAN, and a very large number of other
writings and letters.
Earlier in this answer as a preface I have tried to sketch and
outline the scope of Theosophy.


2. Have you ever asked God or the divinity in which you believe
specifically if those texts are "true"? (Please see
"SUBQUESTIONS"
below)

DTB	If you grasp the scope that THEOSOPHY offers, then "asking
God" is rather fruitless and trite. The reason is that what we
call "GOD" is the OMNIPRESENCE of the deific (or SPIRITUAL
Principle). As an analogy SPACE is offered for consideration as
it is "present" everywhere, at all times, and in all things as an
eternal background. "God" is not a BEING however grand
Essentially God is hot a "he" or a "she" but one might define IT
as an "IT" -- an embodiment of all the Laws of Life, of Virtue
and of Nobility. "God" does not belong to a sect, a priesthood,
or a "book." But, in fact is UNIVERSAL, IMPARTIAL, OMNIPRESENT,
OMNISCIENT and JUST to ALL BEINGS. The pattern of evolution
involving every single being however "small" is a portion of the
pattern of ITS OMNIPOTENCE. This "potency" in never employed
personally or as a result of prayer, laudation, or petition.

On might say that the fact of a presence -- in religion,
philosophy, or culture -- is evidence of the many ways in which
this evolutionary process is preserved and encouraged by the
UNIVERSAL, IMPERSONAL DEIFIC PRINCIPLE. Our Earth IS NOT the
sole object of the deific attention. We are very unimportant as
a people, a word, a solar system in the grand whole and finality
of the UNIVERSE as a WHOLE.


3. Have you ever asked God or the divinity in which you believe
specifically if the religion in which you participate is "true"?
(Please see "SUBQUESTIONS" below)

DTB	Unnecessary in view of the above position.


4. Have you ever asked God or the divinity in which you believe
specifically if the founder of your religion was "chosen" by
God/divinity or was a "true" prophet/leader? (Please
see "SUBQUESTIONS" below)

DTB	Unnecessary -- for the reasons given above.


**SUBQUESTIONS for #s 2-4: (Please refer to these when answering
the
above questions)

a) If you did ask, could you please sum up how you asked the
higher power (outline of a prayer, for example).

b) If you did ask, please describe as fully as possible what
the
answer was (if any) and how it was conveyed to you. Also please
describe as best you can the feelings you experienced, if any, in
regards to the answer. If you prayed but did not receive an
answer,
please indicate that.

c) How sure are you that any answer you received was
actually
sent in some form from God/Divinity? Explain.

c) If you did not asked your divinity specifically about the
above points, on what basis do you believe in them?

DTB	You are making of "God" a very limited BEING if you think
that there may be an actual dialog of this nature. Why should
"god" trouble himself in any kind of an answer to such as you
employ?

This does not mean that some have claimed to hold such dialogs,
but the metaphysics of the matter preclude any special
significance to the way in which a claim of correspondence is
then made. Example: Why should the President of a University
pay attention to a trivial inquiry from a freshman just entering
his first class ?


5. Does your religion urge people who are studying your religion
to
specifically ask God/Divinity if your religion/scripture/leaders
are "true?"

DTB	THEOSOPHY does not seek adherents.
As a Science it displays the history of research -- but the
actual field of such research is as wide as our present view
extends NOW, and reaching into the PAST it discerns the existence
of inquirers and inquiries similar to your over an enormous
time-frame.
As a review of events and discovery it (THEOSOPHY) notices that
the UNIVERSE (NATURE) has already a very complex and exact system
of inter-relations and of cooperation in place.

In fact all our present SCIENCE does, is to examine Nature's
systems so as to continually ascertain the fact that we are all
ruled by immutable, unalterable LAW. In the ancient Hindu system
of philosophy this was called KARMA -- or the exact return of
effect to cause.


6. If not, in what manner do they promote a belief in the
religion?
In other words, how do they convince someone to join?

DTB	consider for a moment our present systems of Education:
children go to school and they are there presented with facts
concerning mathematics, language, history, geography, and a
chosen spectrum of cultures, including literature, prose, poetry,
history (as each country or political party sees history
differently, there is an attempt made to slant the child's
knowledge in a certain direction) ... and so on.
The teaching has faults, but the way in which children react,
(studiously, blind believingly, or playfully and with
disinterest, or even positively a desire to remain ignorant) are
qualities which each student chooses and is responsible for.
One might observe with justice that all children learn at
different rates. But, when a child puts his WILL into learning,
then there is a tremendous difference between his/her progress
and that of those whose main desire is to play or to be passive
and indolent -- in response to what is offered.


7. Do you believe that God or Divinity answers prayers? If so,
how
does he/she/it answer them. If not, please explain why.

DTB	On what basis can this be useful or true? Common sense
tells us all that we get exactly what we have meted out to
others. We innately fear the consequences to us of having caused
suffering to others (by the practice of one or other of the
VICES) . We seem to sense innately that nature is just and fair,
and we will receive, for good or ill exactly what we have put
into our efforts at living.
Most hope (without knowledge or proof) that "God" (if He/She is a
PERSONAL BEING -- with the same personal faults we have --
magnified -- ) will be somehow cajoled by our petitions /
prayers --and "excuse" or "wipe off" the evil we have caused.

Let me ask you what about the VICTIMS ? Who gives them redress
or solace? Do we? Do we deserve to be "pardoned" just because
we are foolish enough to believe "God" will enjoy our praise and
petition (fee to a priest ?) -- I thought "God" was way above
such things !



8. Choose one:

Do you __________ that your religion is "true"
a) know
b) believe
c) have faith
d) hope
e) feel
f) think
g) don't believe
h) don't know
i) other (please explain)

and... Please describe WHY you chose what you did for question
8.

DTB	As you see, The only value to the WORD : RELIGION is that
it is derived from the Latin: "Re" (again) and "ligere" (bind
or tie)
Everyone makes his own bonds and those depend on his knowledge or
hopes. There is a vast difference between those two poles. The
INDIVIDUAL and INDEPENDENT "MIND" present in each of us as an
independent base for entitative existence, -- it is this
nameless BEING that THINKS which is YOU. ME, and the rest of
beings in the UNIVERSE -- and in ancient philosophies it has been
called THE ETERNAL PILGRIM, because the Law of Universal Karma
demands many lives (REINCARNATIONS) on Earth so as to harmonize
all its many debts to other equally immortal beings, which it may
have disturbed or harmed.
It should be plain that THEOSOPHY recognizes no PERSONAL GOD who
might act lawlessly. It hails the reign of the UNIVERSAL ONE
SELF which is limitless and faithful to all the milliards of
LIVING BEINGS that have taken shelter within its illimitable
spatial extents and it faithful and just LAWS.
Further, each of these immortal beings has for goal a
COMPREHENSION of this UNIVERSE as a WHOLE, and may secure for
itself by the exercise of its WILL a FULL KNOWLEDGE of the
Laws -- thence, by use and obedience, (which is BROTHERHOOD TO
ALL BEINGS) each may ultimately reach to a full mastery (without
any coercion whatsoever) of the methods of work exemplified in a
totally harmonious, dynamic UNIVERSE.
History draws our attention to the great Religions of present and
past, and shows that at their base there is/was a common
philosophy.

For example: Christianity bases itself (however unfaithfully) on
the teachings of Jesus. Jesus learned from the many religious
Initiates of His time: the Rabis of the Jews (who had their
secret Kabala from Babylon and Chaldea (the Magi) -- which those
had derived from the ancient Brahmins of Hindustan-- not that
(Kabala) of the 15th/16th century which was re-written); the
Hierophants of Egypt; the Buddhist monks who had established a
monastery on the banks of the Dad Sea. (You will find on
comparison that the teachings of Jesus parallel closely those of
Gautama the Buddha.)
Thus Christianity can be traced as philosophy (not as rites and
dogma) back through Egypt, Babylon, Zoroastrianism (Magi) to
Hindu India and Buddhist India.

One should note that every religion has had two aspects: 1.
that of the hoi polloi -- the populace, and 2. that of the
Initiates and priests. Which of these are you tracing and asking
about ?

DTB	Please see all I have written so far.


9. Are feelings an accurate indicator of truth if you feel that
they
come from God/divinity? (For example, if you are praying and have
a
peaceful or warm tingly feeling, is that an answer from God?) Why
or
why not.
DTB	Feelings are untrustworthy and like the theories of science
they are constantly changing as new evidence arises. They are
very unstable as any student of religion soon finds out.


10. What is your religion?

DTB	I AM A FREE THINKER. I have no need of any presently
existing religious system -- all are faulty, and yet strangely
all contain fragments of the TRUTH.
Call me a "STUDENT OF THEOSOPHY.": I am constantly thinking,
reviewing and learning.


11. Are you a convert to your religion or were you born in it?

DTB	(see above) I choose to be what I am and refuse to be
placed into any categories so far designed..


12. In your religion, is it emphasized that you should have a
deep
belief about the religion, the scriptures, and the leaders as
being "true?"

DTB	See above -- I despise any kind of "blind belief" or any
kind of "reliance" without adequate verification of anyone's
"say-so." "Faith" is a "fighting word" with me, as to me it
denotes incomprehension and lack of adequate study and research.
This is of course measured by the nature of questions asked.


----------------

Thanks so much for your participation. All the input I can gather
will help form my ideas.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at
drpepper1220@yahoo.com



This was a delightful review.

Thanks for addressing me.

If you have further responses or questions regarding the answers
I make, do not hesitate to ask further.

If you want a good survey of THEOSOPHY then I would recommend
either of two small books:
THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- H. P. Blavatsky (308 pages)
THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- W. Q. Judge	(78 pages)
Both are available ON LINE through BLAVATSKY.NET

Best wishes,

Dallas