Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00128)

Tuesday, January 23, 2001


Dear Gerry:

Thanks. May I interject some response below?

Dal

===============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 2:35 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Response to Dallas

>> It is Science that is advancing and proving the
verities that Theosophy has already posited over 100 years
ago..>>

To some extent, yes. I don't think that modern
science has actually *disproved* any Theosophical
position.

========================================

>>Now to some few observations.
Motion is declared to be perpetual in theosophy and further,
emanating from Fohatic intelligence it shows the aptitude to be
independent
even at the atomic, molecular and cellular level. >>

Motion is perpetual throughout our 7-plane solar system
during its manvantara of 7 Rounds, yes. I would not say
that it emanates from Fohat, but rather the reverse, Fohat
itself being a conduit between Space and Motion (and Motion
itself implies Time). On the cosmic level, Motion is
expressed by the continuous expansion of the universe
itself. On the quantum level, by quantum foam, a seething
and bubbling activity of virtual particles in so-called
vacuum or empty space (science now admits that "nature
abhors a vacuum" in the sense that vacuums do not, in fact,
exist at all).

========================================
DTB IN FOHAT (and his "sons") AND LINKED WITH
INDIVIDUAL KARMA MAY BE THE "CAUSAL" ASPECT. Every motion has a
cause which is ultimately made sensible (visible, tangible ?) in
"matter." If the Universe is an expression of CAUSE, then so are
alt he many motions. Motion takes place in abstract space - in
the sense that space is a PRESENCE even if non-tangible.
The continuous "expansion" of the Universe or outbreathing, seems
to produce Manvantara, abs this is to be followed by an
inbreathing which brings on a Pralaya. On the quantum level this
"bubbling" may be indicative of intelligence at that level, if it
be admitted that attraction and repulsion are the inherent
"tools" of all MONADS.
===========================================

<<We need to discover the source of that independence (as well as
cooperation) -- which may be expressed in electro-magnetic terms
or
attraction/repulsion.>>

I do not subscribe to independence of anything at all.
Everything arises in dependence on other things. The force of
attraction is
none other than an expression of the
universal law of love. This law, like all things,
takes on a dual aspect, and becomes attraction/love and
repulsion/hate which form a duality.

=========================================
DTB I AGREE, WHEN THE UNITS (MONADS) EXIST YOU HAVE
AN INDEPENDENCE/DEPENDENCE RELATIONSHIP. NOTHING IS ISOLATED.
LAW IS ALWAYS "THERE" IN THOSE TWO ASPECTS YOU SUGGEST.
============================================

<<There are many states of matter and consciousness besides
the physical matter known to us.>>

The notion of "matter' is pretty relative, and it is,
after all, just a form of energy (does energy=spirit?).
==================================
DTB RELATIVE TO WHAT? SOURCE or EFFECT?
A "FORM OF ENERGY" IMPLIES A "SOURCE" THAT SETS LIMITS TO THAT
"FORCE."
Everything in the 7-fold Universe is ultimately referable to
Spirit = call it either the subjective CAUSE or the subjective
EFFECT. Logic demands one or the other.
=======================================================

We have a subjective sense of self, albeit an illusive
one, which gives rise to a corresponding sense of
not-self, which is equally illusory. This not-self
or prakriti, is what we call "matter."

=====================================
DTB HOW TO DEFINE THE "we" THAT PROVIDES THE
"SUBJECTIVE SENSE OF "SELF?" IN A WAY everything IS SUBJECTIVE
as we translate all sense impressions into internal mental
records or constructs. NOT-SELF- implies to me OTHER THEN
MY-SELF. But not necessarily disconnected from me. How then can
the "NOT-SELF" be "Prakriti?" The interaction and sharing of
monads and skandhas implies no discontinuity, but a cooperative
sharing of basic and substantial materials doe it not?
==============================

But science
shows us that matter is not truly as substantive as it
appears to our senses to be, but rather is mostly
if not completely empty space. Thus we have Space
as objectivity and Motion as subjectivity, a self
which seems to move about over time and through space.

==================================
DTB THE REVERSE WOULD BE EQUALLY TRUE, AS OBJECTIVITY
AND SUBJECTIVITY to me, IMPLY STATES OF MIND. YET THE "I" IS
ALWAYS SEPARATE AND SUPERIOR TO THE "MIND" WHICH IS tool THAT IT
DIRECTS.
======================================

<<Nirvana is a state and not a "place." >>

It is, in fact, either or both, depending on your
sources. Purucker said that devachan is a state
rather than a place too, but again, I think that
this is relative. I define nirvana as the upper
three cosmic planes. This is in conformance
with the writings of most Dzogchen Masters who
view nirvana as the dualistic opposite of samsara.
Samsara can also be viewed as a state or a place,
and I define it as the lower four planes.
Are these planes places? Are they locations?
Do they exist as locations or states of consciousness?
Even after experiencing them, I cannot say. It
depends on how you want to look at it. "Nirvanic"
is an adjective used to describe a state, but
"nirvana" is often considered a place that we can go
to where the corresponding subjective state is
samadhi. When you cross the Abyss, things get fuzzy...

==================================================
DTB EXACTLY -- AS OUR ABILITY TO DEFINE NIRVANA, ETC.,
uses words which may not resonate exactly in the mind of another.
On the other hand, I try to understand these concepts in terms of
the universal qualities and principles that Theosophy outlines (I
mean H.P.B.'s) not de Puruker or others, as I have not been able
to grasp their reasonings.
=======================================


<< It appears from description to be a state of "selfish
bliss" where one is disconnected from the horrors of
incarnation in this world -- which has also been described
as one of the "hells." <<

This is indeed how it appears to those outside Buddhism.
Buddhism teaches that the self has no inherent existence,
only a conventional existence posited in dependence on the
five skandhas.

=================================
DTB I know the definition. "I", "we", the SELF do
not have PHYSICAL EXISTENCE, YET THEY RULE THE physical and other
lower selves we use all the time.
==========================================

So, who or what is there to experience
this bliss of nirvana? Even the Theravadins teach the
anatma doctrine. On the other hand, this is what could
be called an exoteric teaching of the lower schools,
because such a blissful nirvana would counter the
suffering of samsara as a vast duality. The higher
schools would all say that such a blissful nirvana is
itself part of maya and must be transcended in what
is sometimes called a mahanirvana. From a Theosophical
perspective, I see this as samsara being the 4 lower
planes, nirvana the 3 upper planes, and mahanirvana
as beyond the whole solar system of planes. This view
allows me to relate Theosophy with Dzogchen and
Mahamudra.

================================
DTB THAT TRANSCENDENCE I would say is a state of mind
where the FEELING of "Bliss," or "Not-Bliss" is unimportant.
Indifference to those "pairs of opposites" would indicate to me a
universality, impartiality, and respect for all beings that are
struggling to grasp the meaning of this and transcend the mayavic
bonds of Samsara -- or the sea of illusions.
To me the concept of continuous service to others is far ore
important than how I may "feel, or desire" about things. If the
THINGS-IN-THEMSELVES are only ILLUSIONS and temporary, then the
object of our service is for the MONADIC INTELLIGENCES that have
so far limited themselves by their making of illusions, their
realities. Only the MIND WIELDED BY THE SELF IS ABLE TO MAINTAIN
AN EQUIPOISE THAT DISPELS THE MISTS OF ALMOST CONTINUAL ILLUSION
(I would say)/
======================================

<<To attain such a position on has to proceed as indicated in THE
VOICE OF
THE SILENCE up to the end of the 3rd Fragment <<

I consider the Voice to be a true Mahayana text, and
her translation of it probably the first real exposure
of Mahayana in the West.


<<"Can there be bliss when all that lives must
suffer? Shalt thou be saved and hear the whole world
cry?">>

Please try to see this as poetic rather than literal. It
is experiential, not theological or ontological.
Mahayanists believe that there is no real truly
existent self, so who is it that is suffering, and
who is it that is saved?

====================================
DTB Mahayanists do not have beliefs, they have
experience and offer that for consideration.

They base their concepts / explanations on the reality of the
UNIVERSAL SELF, and that in turn is an emanation of the ABSOLUTE.
"WE" are only a "ray" of the ONE SELF ABSOLUTE.

Our existence in a construct of matter (monads) is not for our
benefit, as you rightly say, but because of the needs of the
MONADS which have not yet attained our stage of perception. By
incarnating to be of assistance to those MONADS we seem to have
temporarily become limited by the illusions of "matter."

To regain the perfection we surrendered (lost) we have to
struggle up out of those limits and in doing so, serve as living
examples to the rest who are around or influenced by us. -- that
is how I see it. It is a form of "charity and love immortal."
VOICE

The "Perfected Man" (Mahatma, Buddha, Dhyan Chohan,...) finds
that on "graduation" choices are offered him by NATURE as to what
his future functions might be. Since, forever more, the path to
higher spirituality is open, the choices of service are
innumerable. This includes the serving of some aspiring MONAD on
the upward path as a "Tutor." However with every "descent" back
into conditions of "illusion framed by material circumstances"
there is the danger of again becoming "lost" in that morass of
illusion (samsara). Certainly the "Tutor Monad" (S.D. ii 167,
186, 246, 254-5fn, 275, TRANSACTIONS pp. 66 - 77) as a concept
is well described there.

=========================================

The idea in such passages
is to develop bodicitta, an honest and sincere sense
of compassion. The claim made, is that without
bodicitta such as the Theravadins, one can progress
only to the pretyekabuddha or Solitary Buddha but
that with it one can become a Bodhisattva and progress
to true Buddha-hood. Basically, it helps remove the
desire to enter a blissful nirvana - one of the three
higher planes. Rather, the bodicitta helps us to
transcend the entire 7-plane solar system.

=================================
DTB LOGICALLY, TO ME, "Charity or Bodh-chitta, is
precisely the service I described above. But the goal of
Pratyekha Buddha hood which in effect is to bring the bonds of
KAMA to an end, merely releases for a while the MONAD from
contact with this kind of world of pain and suffering, and
selfishly, it dissociates from all the other monads which need
its help. That is why I drew attention to the final question
asked of the BODHISATTVA at the end of the 3rd fragment of the
VOICE -- "Shalt thou be saved and hear the whole world cry ?"
========================================


<<Unfortunately, using the information that Theosophy offers
(from the
accumulated History of observation of the ages -- S.D. I 272-9 --
I can see
when the rest of the egos that are evolving catch up with the one
that is
"resting" in Nirvana, Nature compels its reappearance to continue
its
evolutionary task, and deal with the world and its problems
again -- of
course at a more advanced level, as the rest of its companions
have "caught
up" with it.. It is not a "forever" situation but just a long
rest.<<

This is so. But we have to remember that when we
at long last reach the end of this manvantara, and
are one with the Divine Monad, we will rest just to
begin a new manvantara all over again.

====================================
DTB LOOKING AT S.D. I P. 27 VERSE 8, ONE MIGHT BE LED
TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE BUDDHAS AND MAHATMAS are not made to
"Rest" with all the rest -- they have transcended that condition,
and may therefore be said to be active as "The EYE OF THE DANGMA
." And be actively at work in preparation for the coming
Manvantara.
====================================
Rest and
activity always go together, without end or conceivable
beginning. In other words, we should not degrade the
accomplishment of the Arhat or pretyekabuddha, which is
after all pretty substantial. Our compassion has to
reach out to everyone, for we are all incarnating
and evolving and involving and liberating, and
waking and sleeping and so forth and so on throughout
what Blavatsky calls duration.

=============================
DTB the "SUBSTANTIALITY" of the PRATYEKHA Buddha is a
mark of its limits, is it not?
==========================================

<<As to "H.P.B.'s Books" -- Well there it is matter of learning
what is
offered.>>

What is offered in books is exotericism. One must
read between lines and put the ideas into daily
life for it to have meaning.

=============================
DTB AGREED -- YET FOR US THAT EXOTERICISM is found to be
based on a comprehensible and logical basis of esotericism and
occultism. Or else the books and information are misleading and
senseless. They cannot be 50 / 50.
=====================================

<< If one considers them as the history of earlier observations
into Nature
and her laws (Nature already contains everything and can be show
to work
with intelligence and purpose.) <<

Your faith in nature far surpasses mine.

=====================================
DTB I prefer calling it observation and reasoning.
Faith is a word I dislike unless it is qualified. A "blind"
faith is something that does not help anyone. But, trust in the
things which have proved to be true, and an ability (and
invitation) to examine and verify lead me far more into trust
than otherwise, and yet, as you suggest, independence demands
that all be examined.

======================================


<<Not to take them on "faith," but to test them.>>

We can only hope to test them according to our own
worldview, and so we will each get different results.

===========================
DTB OUR CORRESPONDENCE SEEMS TO PROVE THERE IS VALUE
IN THE COMPARISON OF WHAT WE MAY HAVE INDIVIDUALLY DISCOVERED?
===================================


<<If there is logic and coherency, then they are worth
considering.>>

Actually, I don't care much for logic although
coherency is nice. All universe models are built
from logic and reason, and yet look at all the
differences there are. Blavastky's model is logical
up to a point, but experience far surpasses logic
(logic and reason are mental and exist on the mental
plane, the third place up and not so very spiritual.
Intuition is on the fourth plane up, and spiritual
insight on the higher planes. Both of these surpass
logic).

====================================
DTB BETWEEN THE VERITIES OF SPIRIT AND THE ILLUSIONS
OF MATTER THERE IS A BALANCE POINT. I WOULD SUGGEST IT IS THE
INDEPENDENT CONSCIOUSNESS -- WHICH BEING UNITARY IS UNAFFECTED.
IT PIERCES UP AND DOWN THROUGH THE 7 STATES OF BEING AND SERVES
TO UNITE THE MEMORY OF EXPERIENCES ON ALL THOSE PLANES.
IF YOU THROW LOGIC AND INDEPENDENT THOUGHT INTO THE WASTE BOX
THEN IT SEEMS TO ME YOU DEPRIVE YOURSELF OF IMPORTANT
INDIVIDUALIZING FACULTIES -- AT LEAST THOSE THAT SHOW A CLOSE
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE REST OF THINKING AND FEELING HUMANITY. AND
B Y THAT I MEAN A CONTACT WITH THE UNIVERSAL AND THE IDEAL.
====================================

>>It invites examination, sincerely, openly and honestly. All
theories are
to be considered such until proved.>>

There is no such thing as "proved" else we would
have only one world religion or only one world
philosophy. What you "prove" to be so, I can "prove"
to be not-so, and vice versa. Logic is a two-edged
sword and cuts both ways.

===================================
DTB IF ONE ABANDONS THE NEED TO BE RIGHT, THEN ONE
CAN SUBSTITUTE FOR IT THE NEED TO BE UNIVERSAL, SPIRITUAL,
IDEAL -- ALL THOSE CONDITIONS AND VERITIES AND VIRTUES THAT
EVERYONE CAN EXPRESS OR GRASP AS IDEALS AND USE. IT IS NOT THE
TAKING FROM ANY ONE BUT THE AGREEMENT THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN
LEVELS OF VERITY AT THE BASE OF THE UNIVERSE AND OUR OWN
EXISTENCE THAT COINCIDE.
=======================================



<<We have to be able to determine what is reporting on a
test, and extrapolating hypotheses from test results. >>

Yes, but these are always subjective exercises. "Truth"
and "proved" are at best consensus findings.

===================================
DTB UNIVERSALITY WOULD SEEM TO BE THE
"TOUCH-STONE" -- OF COURSE ONE MAY DENY EVERYTHING OR ONLY THOSE
CONCEPTS WHICH CAUSE A REVISION OF ONE'S THINKING -- BUT IF THERE
ARE ALTERNATIVES, THEN THE SELECTION OF ANY ONE OF THEM IS NOT A
SELECTION OF THE "WHOLE." The WHOLE transcends all the may lower
"PARTS."
====================================


<< If it is insisted on as fact, then the supporters of
"theory only" may be awakened to "new facts" and suffer an
annoying crash.<<

I believe that this is exactly what happens, and
will always happen to us. Its how our worldview
expands. I have called these "annoying crashes" SEEs
or Significant Emotional Events, and they are always
the result of experiencing something that cannot be
accounted for in our current worldview.


<<The main problem is, as I look at it is that those who
have opinions concerning Theosophy have not really studied
it so as to acquire a thorough knowledge of what it offers. >>

Perhaps. But an equally vexing problem has to do with
those Theosophists who have studied over-much and mistake
their mental accumulations for Gnosis. The human mind
is absorbed after death and all of our vast gain in
knowledge dies with us leaving only the "aroma" of the
past life as HPB has it. This aroma is the karmic
skandhas or aggregates that carry over to the next life.
So, it makes more sense to me to work on developing
compassion and intuition than in learning about
cosmocartores, manus, and the like, although these
are fun things to learn about.

===================================
DTB AS I UNDERSTAND IT the Kama-manasic (Lower mind)
ideas being material are not help over to the new life except as
the skandhaic remnants of karmic (unfinished business) and those
have no "name" or "Coherency of identity" attached to them for
the burden or benefit of the reincarnating entity (MONAD). The
efflorescence of which H.P.B. writes in the KEY and elsewhere is
precisely the division between the illusory (that perishes) and
the SPIRITUAL IDEAL) which "survives" in the BUDDHI-MANASIC
capacity of the returning Ego. It is, to me, just like school:
ONE RETAINS THE PROCEDURES AND PROOFS. The errors and the false
paths we took, are abandoned and forgotten. Their nature serves
as a retardant to true spiritual progress for the MONAD.
Best wishes,

Dallas

-------------

Jerry S.





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