Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00114)

Friday, January 19, 2001
Dear Gene:

Theosophy is only difficult who look for difficulties there. Our
schooling has emphasized the idea that we live only a single life
and that we are being tested in character even if we do not have
the fortitude or acuity to measure up to what seems to be an
impossible ideal: Jesus.

Actually it is a compliment to man's unlimited capacity. Also it
is a challenge to his ability to survey the world and its running
and works and see if he can learn to discipline his emotions and
balance them.

Theosophy says that we are immortal pilgrims. The qualities good
and bad are internal to us, and we have an impartial mind which
is able to either reason towards the IDEALS or descend into the
miserable complexity of self-isolation represented by the
sensuous and the evanescent -- the single life which is either
pleasure or pain.

I would not worry about the intellectuals, because their view end
to rely on and support a basic failure: They fail to see
universal LAW. They fail to perceive cause and effect always and
ultimately find balance in the presence and in the living of the
original chooser. They fail to perceive the linked connection of
all phases of living from the visible to the supreme CAUSE which
is also the RESULT of reestablished harmony. The active and free
ingredient in all this is Man's mind, and he has many lives to
develop its full capacities.

So you have the universal KARMIC CAUSE which is the impulse of
all previous experiences the supreme lure: They fail to see the
interconnections on the more subtle plains of nature with our
physical as the last and least visible.

As to your contributions -- they are useful in securing a link
between your study and what Theosophy presents. To aspire to
make further contributions to the advancement of thought is
valuable, but to first begin one has to settle into the work
already in progress and understand how the "fundamentals" apply.
That's the best I can think of.

Best wishes,

Dallas

==============================





-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 8:08 AM
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Part 2 - Continuing with the
study: vol 1, p18-19 1, 2, 3, and 4

Dear Dallas,

My effort is to bridge to the academic intellectual and
scientific
community. I am very limited in this effort as I am trained as a
physician
and never had to go through the rigourous training and testing
for a masters
degree or a Ph.D. I have read and studied all of HPB's texts and
I'm now
fascinated by the instructions for the esoteric section wherein
she writes
of blinds and veils and simplifications in the more exoteric
theosophical
writings, then, at her time, and in the past. I have found that
understanding the theosophical writings is very hard work and
very likely,
as written, to put many sincere students off and there is method
in the way
they are written. Some of the writings are to be taken literally
and some
seen as symbolically conveyed. It is up to the intuition of the
student to
discern which is which.

One of the major duties, as I see it, to all theosophists is to
make the
logic of the philosophy/religion/science clear to others
interested but
outside the field. Rationality is inclusive. Rational minds
converge.
Were men(thinkers) to really think they could come up with
theosophy on
their own. Such is the glory and inclusiveness of the field.
None are to
be left out because they lack access or understanding to HPB's
writings.
The true writings are in the heart of hearts of humankind. Page
references
are very useful to theosophists actively engaged in sharing and
studying
HPB's writings, but what about those brilliant and intuitive
minds that
aren't familiar with the writings and have no background in them?

I have learned how I might be an asset to this list and I have
learned how I
might just be perturbing. I choose to be an asset. The
perturbing might
come unintentionally due to the self-centered aspect of my
human-ness.

To know the given material well and to communicate it to others
effectively
is indeed a major duty within theosophic circles. Also, however,
there
seems to me the probability that each one of us can re-create the
whole of
the theosophical wisdom from the foundational principles and even
have a
deeper insight into these principles. I do not wish to
complicate things.
I wish to simplify things. I wish to find common ground between
thinkers
within the exoteric theosophical movement and thinkers "outside"
and not now
consciously interested in theosophy.
Once again I can cheerlead this effort if there is resonance
within both
communities. Both communities can begin to reach out to one
another as they
see the inner truth and the reflection of this inner truth in the
writings
of one another.

Let's see what might happen if I learn to observe more and write
less. I
tend to write before I throughly understand and this done in the
spirit of
brainstorming. I am learning that silence and being can be
wonderful
techniques for better focus.

I love and appreciate your work and the work of others on this
list. I've
got things to work out from within.

May the true theosophic wisdom shine in the hearts of all freely
open to it.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 4:08 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Part 2 - Continuing with the
study: vol
1, p18-19 1, 2, 3, and 4


> Thursday, January 18, 2001
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> Thanks for your consideration of my tables -- which I see were
> mangled in transmission -- at least the ones I received back
here
> were.
>
> Your attempt to equate them or frame a notation with which you
> work is interesting, also a bit puzzling as I think it might
> serve to make the Theosophical more remote, and require an
> intermediate key of a series of explanations to render it
> understandable to the average seeker.
>
> I am not familiar with the notations used commonly in higher
> mathematics as used in our universities and advanced sciences
to
> be able to do any more than say : They are related to Logic,
and
> Logic in terms of derivation and usage I think I am able to
> understand. I never needed placing a new series of symbols in
> the place of the old ones, which you seem to grasp are related
as
> you do If that kind of notation is one you like to use or
> devise, then do so, but always recall the relation you express
is
> based on the qualities ascribed to the old descriptions. It
must
> have a value for those who are starting in their own
> self-education.
>
> If one is able to see further, then the depth and breadth of
such
> vision ought to be made clearer to newbees rather than
establish
> a ledge where they have to learn something new -- then, someone
> will say: Why was I not taught this at the beginning?
>
> The bridge between levels of perception is not a CHANGE OF
> CONSCIOUSNESS, but rather it is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS which is
> able to pass through the various planes and levels of thought
and
> memory, and because it is always UNALTERED, it is able to
> correlate all levels of its experiences in its ONE MEMORY -- a
> portion of the Akasa. ( see NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA,
Judge --
> pp. 98-101 relates to this and for me is most useful).
>
> It is quite possible that some new notation may be needed by
> those who desire to relate in their minds to some aspect of
> evolution, and use those notations as a kind of short-cut. It
is
> also possible that the using of such a new set, may render the
> explanations concerning Primal Evolution and the passage in
> experience of the MONAD through the various ROUNDS, GLOBES,
> RACES, SUB-RACES and FAMILY RACES as detailed in S.D. I 200 and
> in other places like S.D. II 432-5 .
>
> I imagine that the S.D. was written, and the notation adopted
> there was devised to help the average interested student find
his
> way in terms of pre-history through the mazes of evolution. I
> also imagine that simplification was intended, as that would
> assist beginners to get the ideas of an ETERNAL PILGRIM (MONAD)
> as it encountered its own "Karma" returning to it for
adjustment
> through the voyage of other ETERNAL PILGRIMS which carried
> aspects of that Karma with them (they having been impressed
> earlier).
>
> Of course if we deny to the Higher Ego (Higher Manas or
> Buddhi-Manas) immortality, then all this is nonsense. Probably
> the over-view first given of the re-formation of galaxies,
solar
> systems, planets and our earth as the reincarnation of those
> which had earlier existed and then gone into the "sleep and
> dissolution" of a major Pralaya, was intended to show the
> immutable nature of KARMA, which brings all beings of whatever
> degree back into organized life from the chaotic mixture of the
> "Monadic Essence (S.D. I 619) which was also called CHAOS,
>
> To achieve this the great Buddhas, Dhyan Chohans participated
in
> causing the re-organization of the Evolutionary planes and
> systems when the Cyclic time struck for their presence,
guidance
> of the UNIVERSAL PLAN (Karma) became necessary.
>
> If in our minds we allow ourselves to keep on being limited to
> the phenomena of our physical life, e will not be ale to build
> the bridge of thought from this small plane of the experience
and
> memories of this life (in the waking state) to the far larger
> ones of the growing work of the Universe, where each component
is
> an IMMORTAL, and is also working out its own evolution into a
> Buddha, as a brother IMMORTAL among other Immortals, and where
> the interaction has to be faithful, generous, and
self-effacing.
> These qualities (virtues) are for us the most difficult to
> grasp -- but only the consideration of immortality enables us
to
> see the value of the idea of BROTHERHOOD and service to others,
> as a total pre-requisite to any SPIRITUAL (VIRTUOUS) GAIN.
>
> Do you have a copy of TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE for
> reference ? Between pages 66 and 76 ULT Edition, and
Blavatsky
> Collected Works, Vol. 10, pp. 252 -263) will be found some
> explanations of the relations between the two Egos in Man
This
> unusual condition is considered in the S.D., please refer to
S.D.
> II 87 167 186 246 254-5 275 619; S.D. I 105 130 210 267 574
> 619 ) The list of pages is long, but valuable psychological
> information is given there. Apparently one of the "perfected
> Monads" sacrifices its "position" in order to co-inhabit a
> developing "physical form" where another Mind-Monad is
employing
> those qualities that will enable it to obtain that independence
> of thought. This Perfection of harmless and generous thought
> open the gates to the "Perfection" desired.
> We all are at various stages along a common path which will
> permit us to develop our own "Perfection" by our own
self-induced
> and self-devised choices.
>
> The "elder Tutor" (or Higher Self) -- to use a bad phrase --
> has the task of being only an OBSERVER and (on REQUEST from the
> LOWER MANAS, an advisor) not a participant, or a director, in
any
> way, in the great struggle whereby a level of individual
> Perfection is achieved over many incarnations by the
> "Lower-Manasic" Ego (who is you and me as we are now in a
> physical body and brain). This is why it is called a process
of
> self-initiation. I say this because the Wisdom (BUDDHI) is
> within. We (the MIND) have to seek it, and use it, and only
> virtue (purity of motive) enables this to done. Virtue demands
a
> knowledge of the laws of Nature and of ourselves, as Mind-men
and
> women. There is no "outside" Initiator, only the inner one,
and
> we have to access IT, and enable it to advise us how to work in
> and through our personality. The personality does not blank
> itself out of existence -- it cannot -- but as it grows milder
> and obeys the great laws of unselfishness, it increases in
power
> and self-value in all ways. A sure knowledge of our
immortality
> is pivotal to this entire line of reasoning in regard to what
we
> can make of ourselves. It is never too late to begin.
>
> Why call it self-initiation? Because all the potentials
inherent
> in every MONAD have to be, when the Mind-man stage is achieved,
> grasped, analyzed, and understood in terms of their cooperative
> relationship with the rest of Nature. The sense of being
> isolated or a selfish attitude, which results in a position of
> pride, dominance, authority, etc... has to be dropped, once
that
> one is able to see that those have only an illusory and short
> term validity. Only the embodiment of universal and impartial
> principles makes the Man-Mind a true and powerful-for-good
> immortal.
>
> See if this is of any use, and ask further, if you will,
>
> Best wishes, as always,
>
> Dallas
>
> =======================================
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 9:17 AM
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Cc: Esoteric Science
> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Part 2 - Continuing with
the
> study: vol 1, p18-19 1, 2, 3, and 4
>
> Please see below Dallas's comments.
> >
> >
> > We may then say that we have as
> >
> > 0 ZERO the ABSOLUTE out of manifestation -- eternal
BACKGROUND
> >
> > 1 ONE unmanifested potential Logos
> >
> > 1 ONE manifesting Logos -- the CENTRAL SPIRITUAL SUN which
is
> > everywhere
> >
> > 2 TWO SPIRIT-MATTER The 2 poles of the egg of manifestation
> > (MONAD)
> >
> > 3 THREE MAHAT -- UNIVERSAL MIND, PLANNER, BUILDER, OBSERVER,
> > the ETERNAL WITNESS and THE ETERNAL PILGRIM. (Our INNER,
> > INDISSOLUBLE, ETERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
> >
> > The Mind in man as a "ray" of Mahat and being medial between
> > Spirit and Matter, it is directly connected with the ABSOLUTE
> and
> > is alone able to perceive all the correlations, and
variations
> of
> > the interplay of SPIRIT / MATTER during life.
> >
> >
> > We may also say: ZERO is representative of the ABSOLUTE
> >
> > ONE represents ATMA (SPIRIT )
> >
> > TWO represents BUDDHI (PRIMORDIAL MATTER) or the
> > accumulated Record and memory of all experiences.
> > WISDOM also called MULAPRAKRITI or "Root Matter."
> >
> > THREE -- MIND (Manas) a "ray" from the Universal Mind with
> > direct connections to the ABSOLUTE -- hence it is impartial
> > and universal.
> >
> > Thus we have the
> >
> > ALL (ZERO) indescribable ABSOLUTENESS -- EVER UNCHANGED and
> > EVER-PRESENT -- KARMA in the abstract
> >
> > ONE SPIRIT UNIVERSAL as a POTENTIAL -- KARMA as potential -
> > harmony, balance
> >
> > TWO the MONAD -- SPIRIT/MATTER eternal, ever active, ever
> > learning and experiencing
> >
> > THREE SUPERNAL TRIANGLE of the ABSOLUTE and SPIRIT and MATTER
> >
> > FOUR MANIFESTED TRIANGLE to which may be added
> > MAHAT (universal Mind) The "cube" or "sacred FOUR").
> >
> > The Lower Quarternary represents the components of the
> material,
> > physical evolution.
> >
> > 1. Kama (DESIRES AND PASSIONS),
> > 2. Prana (VITALITY),
> > 3. Astral Body (electro-magnetic lattice work) and
> > 4. Physical body.
> >
> > I hope this proves helpful,
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> >
> Dallas,
>
> "proves helpful" is an understatement. This is the very area
I'm
> trying so
> hard to definitely understand as all the rest seems to follow
and
> these
> initial understandings seem essential so that chaos doesn't
> overwhelm us as
> we proceed into the rest of the "Secret Doctrine". It seems
that
> there is a
> pattern here. The first plane, Zero, "manifests" in the plane
> below it.
> Then that plane, One, "manifests" in the next plane below it.
> Then that
> plane, Two, "manifests" in the plane below it, etc. It even
> seems that a
> plane manifests subjectively in the next plane below it and
> objectively
> within the second plane below itself.
>
> Using the planes as given in Theosophical discussions of the
> rounds and
> races(with globe A first manifesting on the fourth
plane(buddhic)
> from the
> top, etc) I would like to demonstrate that the first three
> sets(zero, one
> and two) may hold a little secret to the organization of
> Theosophical
> thought.
>
>
> A set of seven planes, corresponding with the cosmic planes,
> Cosmic Logoic,
> Cosmic Monadic, Cosmic Atmic, and so forth:
>
>
> 1. Logoic(systemic consciousness)
> 2. Monadic(within which manifests ZERO)(group consciousness,
> planetary
> consciousness)
> 3. Atmic(within which manifests UNITY)(Self consciousness)
> 4. Buddhic(within which manifests DUALITY)
> 5. Manasic(within which manifests TRINITY)
> 6. Emotional(Kamic, Comic? :-) )
> 7. Physical
>
>
> Let's try this working with just the first three planes(states
> of
> consciousness) implying that they correspond to the first
three
> planes as
> stated above:
>
> 1. Zero
> 2. One
> 3. Two
>
> In set notation:
>
>
> 1. ( )
>
> 2. ( ( ) )
>
> 3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) )
>
>
> See how the first plane is ZERO and this zero is represented in
> the second
> plane. The second is ONE and this UNITY manifests in the third
> plane(through contrast to the zero or ground of being) ???
huh?
> huh?
>
> 1. Zero, unmanifested
> 2. Zero "manifesting", the ground of being, the absoluteness
> within the
> plane of UNITY
> 3. Unity "manifesting", the absolute, within the plane of
DUALITY
> through
> it's contrast
> to the ground of being.(and zero now able to manifest
> objectively as a
> point within an abstract space)
>
> Sorry to reiterate, but this stuff is very very etheric!
>
>
> 1. The Potential Observer but no field of observation
> 2. The Potential Field of Observation
> 3. The Observer within and central to the Field of Observation
>
>
> 1. The potential mathematical point within the infinite space
of
> consciousness
> 2. The potential ring pass not or abstract space within the
> infinite space
> of consciousness
> 3. The central point within the ring pass not or abstract space
> within the
> infinite space
> of consciousness
>
> 1. ( )
>
> 2. ( ( ) )
>
> 3. ( ( . ) )
>
>
> and
>
>
>
> The Ancients knew how to count:
>
> The layer lines of the planes,
>
>
> 0.--------------------
>
> 1.--------------------
>
> 2.--------------------
>
> 3.--------------------
>
>
>
> The first line is 0.
>
> The second line is 1.
>
> The third line is 2.
>
> The third line is 3.
>
>
>
> The spaces(planes or states of consciousness) would be the
> intervals:
>
>
> 1. 0-1
>
> 2. 1-2
>
> 3. 2-3
>
>
> Plane 2 would be called monadic because it is the plane
beginning
> with the
> laya line, one, and it is the first plane with an entity, one
> entity,
> ABSOLUTENESS, the representation of the first plane.
>
> Plane 3 would be the Atmic plane because here the Solar Logos,
> the cosmic
> atma, first appears as the central point, the central spiritual
> sun, within
> it's field of intelligent activity, it's ring pass not.
>
>
> The following may or may not apply, but it seems intriging none
> the less.
> Let's brainstorm!
>
>
>
> (concerning the abstract space called "phase space" by
Poincare)
>
> "In this multidimensional space, the entire solar system is
> represented by
> just a single point, rather than by the ten different ones(one
> for the Sun
> and nine others for the planets) in conventional three
> dimensional space.
> That is the power of this mathematical construct called "phase
> space." No
> matter how complex the situation, how convoluted the plot, how
> baroque the
> setting, regardless of the number of actors, a single point in
> that abstract
> space is sufficient to describe a system in its entirety." page
> 77-78 from-
> Chaos and Harmony- by
> Trinh Xuan Thuan, Oxford Univerity Press, 2001.
>
>
> It seems that re-membering the zero is essential to the clarity
> that can
> occur when studying the thought of the Ancient One(s).
>
> Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>