Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00007)

Jan 1 2001

Dear Gene:

Some notes below: Hasty but perhaps some value in them.

Thanks for the sharing,
D.

================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 10:25 AM
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?

Dear Dallas,

I appreciate all your comments. It is very good for me to
remember the
differences so as not to get confused concerning the word astral
and it's
different uses. I know the HPB's materials are the basis and the
foundation
for all further work in theosophy.

There are clear differences, however, between the seven states of
consciousness and the seven principles as: three of the planes of
any set of
seven planes are abstract and out of manifestation. All of the
principles
are within manifestation. The subtleties are kept in mind.
===========
DTB As I understand it, the evolutionary scheme requires
these 7 (or 10) steps to link the separate poles established in
manifestation And called respectively SPIRIT and MATTER.
Separately I have sent comments to you on a similar subject and
tried to show how the concept of the MONAD (SPIRIT/MATTER)
pervades all manifestation and in all place, all times, and in
any of the planes of matter or of consciousness.

As I see it, the reason for those consecutive links is to enable
the CONSCIOUSNESS of each MONAD -- which is unitary -- TO
PROGRESS UP AND DOWN THE SCALE OF RECORDING, WHICH EACH LEVEL PF
"principles" REPRESENTS. Consciousness is one for each Monad and
not many. Mahat or the Universal Mind, represents not only the
SOURCE in Primary Creation of the mind-principle (S.D. I 75) and
the rules of evolution -- as well as KARMA .
So I am little confused when you speak of several states of
consciousness unless you are looking at it from our matter
limited point of view sich as: waking, lucid dreaming,
kamic-disturbed emotional dreams, true spiritual dreams, trance,
meditation (of several kinds), hypnosis, total periods of time
when our usual consciousness appears to be blanked out and our
brain on awaking seems to have no awareness of, and the kind of
sleep induced by drugs anesthetics, etc...
The important thing is that we are always OURSELVES and not
someone else when we resume waking consciousness. H.P.B. does
mention the evil elementaries, sorcerers and black-magicians who
use their powers to "take over" the body (form) of some
individuals and then use them for their own evil or destructive
purposes. Literature offers a number of such cases.

Dal.

================================
The gross non-etheric plane is not a principle. DTB
WHAT IS IT THEN?
-------------------------------------------
Atma is not a principle, strictly DTB It is UNIVERSAL.
Why are we "aware" of it.
-------------------------------------------

speaking. And. The entire emotional plane is not a principle, I
have
recently seen suggested.
========================================
DTB	I do not understand that, as "feeling" [ including KAMA,
passions and desires] is uncertainty but also it attracts. It is
a "plane" separate from MIND and from PRANA (vitality). Mind is
a tool which is able to pierce up and down through all
possibilities (and planes of sensation) without loosing its
cohesive quality and its egoic nature.
=========================================


The Buddhic-Intuitive state of consciousness is latent thought as
this is
the manifesting plane for the Monadic State of Consciousness, the
second
plane from the top, it seems.
====================================

DTB	Buddhi is said by H.P.B. to include the record of all
experience and event and the impression any Mind makes on matter
as it lives and makes independent choices -- the amount of data
is staggering in our concept. But is necessary for KARMA to work
unerringly and sincerely honestly for every speck of sentient
conscious material -- no matter how "unimportant."
Buddhi-manas is our Mind which is able to unite with the plane
of Buddhi and draw from it a perception of causes and their
potential effects. It is impersonal and universal, also
timeless.

====================================

This Monadic Plane, the plane of the Causeless Cause, is beyond
all possible thought(but not beyond the Heart of hearts). So it
is appropriate that Beauty, Harmony, Grace, Intuition,
Buddhi(Beauty?) be beyond actual thought. The poet speaks of
THAT beyond
all possible thought. A remarkable art, no? The successful
poet speaks of
the Absoluteness.
======================================

DTB	How can any principle be isolated from or "beyond" any other?
The total person is essentially a mind which is balanced between
TOTAL KNOWLEDGE (or WISDOM) and total IGNORANCE (which is
inexperience). Hence the Mind-being (you and me, etc...) have
to pass (over an immense time and many incarnations) through all
those experiences that educate it in the limitations of various
planes of matter (and its lower "principles").
Each Mind-human has to acquire the ability to reflect in itself
without inaccuracy, and by self-effort an actual knowledge of the
WHOLE and the INFINITE.
It (the Soul-Mind) is called THE ETERNAL PILGRIM, because time is
not a factor. In our present lives TIME is a grinding factor.
We feel limited and grasp for certainties which are in themselves
limits WE ERECT through inexperience or false reasoning from
unsound bases.

Dal
=============================


All THAT there is, is the UNKNOWABLE

Therefore,

All that can be known is the unknowable.

(I have just adroitly proved that I'm no poet)


If I were to see at the logoic level, the first plane, this would
be Atma.
=============================

DTB	Why?

Buddhi is only 1/2 of the eternal MONAD It is PRIMORDIAL MATTER.
It needs the contrast of its opposed SPIRIT to manifest.

==================================


If I were to see at the monadic level, this would appear as
Buddhic.
================================================
DTB BUDDHI is only 1/2 of the Monad and cannot exist
separately.
>From one point of view ATMA is the ONLY PRINCIPLE and the 6 other
"principles" are modifications of IT -- THE ONE AND WHOLE.

All beings need contrast for their existence. SPIRIT is the
contrasting (opposite) pole to Buddhi which is PRIMORDIAL MATTER
(Mulaprakriti)
Dal
==========================================


If I were to see at the Atmic level, the third plane, this would
be Manasic.	DTB	OK


And seeing on all these supreme levels (the upper three) would be
Atma-Buddhi-Manas.

DTB	To me this represents the INDIVIDUALITY or the components of
the IMMORTAL MAN -- the ETERNAL PILGRIM.
===================================


The Buddhi-Manas part would be Hermes-Venus or Hermes-Aphrodite
or
Hermaphrodite(Collected Works, Vol. 12, early part of the Second
Instruction, around page 532 or so)

Hence the struggle to see at the highest planes in order to one
day manifest
through the middle and transpersonal planes.

==============================================
DTB	No conflict that I can see. The WE is actually the
individualized higher Mind or Buddhi-Manas on which the supernal
light of the "ray" of ATMA shines always.
As to vision from the plane of BUDDHI-MANAS or even
ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (since the 3 are inseparable) is invoked
whenever the MANAS-MIND dwells on universal and universal
virtues, their origin, existence and application..
Somehow your definitions seem to me to difficult to understand
and apply. I would strongly recommend a review of several tables
in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by H.P.B. pp 91-2, 135-6, 175-6. And
these could also be cross checked with the definitions H.P.B.
gives in the S.D. vol. 1, pp. 243-246. I say this because to
me those are the basis from which Theosophy starts, Later
commentators (as I have found) have erected their terminology on
these in order to define some of their own speculations, which
makes it difficult to adjust their terms to the basics. I may be
wrong, but I sense that you are using something like that.
Actually we ought to be able to deal with these things without
such definitions. But then for communication we need to use
accurate symbology in words.

This is very interesting,

Best wishes,

Dal
===================================
Brother Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> December 30, 2000
>
> Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday.
> BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours.
>
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the
7
> Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and
I
> use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as
a
> basis .
>
> I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her
> (and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of
> what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified
> they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4).
>
> So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions
using
> those originals of H.P.B.
>
> Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics
> involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being,
> perception and of action .
>
> So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is
> rendered clear. Sorry.
>
> Let me add some comments to yours given below.
>
> Dal
>
> ================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
> Dear Dallas,
>
> Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to
be
> food for
> thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be
> consumed,
> digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to
be
> able to
> follow your reasoning.
>
> I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you
are
> expanding
> and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes.
> Also you are
> associating from planes into the seven principles which are
> numbered
> differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow
> you as I'm
> familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles
and
> how Subba
> Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his
> numbering
> system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking
to
> the planes
> and pondering their logical derivation:
> Will causes love and intelligent
> activity and these three have four permutations giving seven
and
> each of the
> seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to
the
> Will or the
> Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and
Intellect).
> I might
> point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words
> to describe
> the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be
> clarifying:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> DTB Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD
to
> achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you
> desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the
> desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate
action,
> the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by
> activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions
to
> the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think
you
> will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is
> legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend
a
> great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used
> casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on.
> What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of
> that pencil, -- and so on.
> --------------------------------------
> Yours My comments
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -----------
> 1. DTB ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY.
>
> 2. Absoluteness DTB NO THING
>
> 3. Absolute DTB NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 )
>
> 4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB WHY LATENT? It can be
> activated and relied on at need.
> MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a
basis
> for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the
> probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think
> may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the
> individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more
> clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of
> TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.)
> If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of
> thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI
and
> MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas.
It
> is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS)
> in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER
> MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can."
>
> 5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS
WE
> GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT
> INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a
personal
> or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some
> time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have
> often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves
to
> look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions,
> words, feelings.
>
> 6. Astral(emotions) DTB NOT part of my concept, as the word
> "astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions
> related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior
to
> the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a
location
> pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence,
> electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the
> physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds
> substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to
> this was its other capacity of recording all the events that
> concerned Lower Manas
> DTB EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B.
> relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this
is
> distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general
> Life-current in man and Nature.
> DTB Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the
life-currents
> JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as
> it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do
with
> the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for
> whatever purpose our life is set for) and
> DTB Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic
> substance) and which also a storage place to act as a
recording
> center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It
is
> said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa.
> 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS
> APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE.
> Just above here.
> DTB Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms
> of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that
> resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those
> "blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them.
> When in motion they obstruct or injure.)
> ==================================
>
> I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the
upper
> three
> planes using my abstract mind as best I can.
> DTB I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought
> when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered
> through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link
> between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY,
> the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort
> the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey.
>
> I'm trying to understand these DTB SO AM I
>
> as best I can before again cycling downward through the four
> "lower"
> permutations of the these states of consciousness.
> I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the
> abstract mind and trying to receive
> through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual
> thought, of the
> buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of
> the Atmic
> state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for
> us,
> perfected humanity.
> ------------------------------------------
> DTB IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I
> don't think there is much profit in making such an
identification
> FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if
> it helps than use the ideas and concepts.
> But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words
> and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits.
> (Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid --
we
> depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have
graduated,
> and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc...
to
> better define what we have added to our past conclusions and
> definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to
ourselves
> to be valid THEN.
> If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does
> not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it
> because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we
are
> emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go,
> cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster.
> But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of
> our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this
ability
> to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So
> difficult to convey exactly what I mean.
> Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means
nothing
> to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION
> rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which
> anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged
> background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the
> SPACE is left there undisturbed.
> =========================================
> All of your comments are right-on and very well
> reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further
dance
> with them
> as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to
> understand
> the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love
beyond
> all
> possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God,
our
> solar
> logos.
> -----------------------------------------------
> DTB WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD
as
> a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer
> who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and
> render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a
> fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or
> FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit
of
> evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS,
and
> the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL.
> One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be
a
> transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes
care
> of the level of motive as it is universalized and made
impersonal
> "for the good of all."
> But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the
ability
> to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and
see
> it moving all the various links from plane to plane and
principle
> to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane
result,
> action, etc... .
> To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are
> into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true
> LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as
> such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the
> "Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser
> experience than ours).
> I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is
the
> first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the
> transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a
> permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere
> voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all
> creatures."
> ==================================
> To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect
> and
> one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like
life
> itself. To
> more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and
our
> father's
> will is a trip!
> ----------------------------------------------
> DTB I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face
> with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those
are
> NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower
> mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential
> of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action
> becomes more apparent.
> One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and
> Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has
> tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those
> terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I
> saw this was not so).
> I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of
> the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER
> and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the
> MONAD in evolution.
> Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and
> all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and
> eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always
> growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws
and
> rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which
it
> participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work
of
> all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms
of
> wisdom, will, knowledge, etc...
> This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas
> uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to
higher
> wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions --
> (Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower
> Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence
of
> selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence
> makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible.
> The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary
> decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As
we
> grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the
> Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many
> "names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our
> responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also
> immortals is a highly important one.
> But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in
all
> this writing.
> Best wishes as always and for the coming year
> Dal
>
> COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends
> truly.
>
> Companions,
> Gene
>
> ========================================
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
> To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM
> Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
>
> > December 27, 2000
> >
> > Dear Gene:
> >
> > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments
> below
> > in the body of yours?
> >
> > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each
> > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with
the
> > other principles at their level.
> >
> > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and
presumably
> > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration
> to
> > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and
> > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common
> > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts
> and
> > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem
to
> > have few words in English to be exact with.
> > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of
> > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness.
> > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality
of
> > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact
is
> > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified,
> > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is
> > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic
> and
> > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own
> > faculties, but not identical.
> >
> > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether
> Universal
> > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi
> > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental
> > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings,
> > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish
from
> > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important
to
> > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware
> of
> > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and
through
> > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind."
> >
> we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL.
>
>
>
>
>