Theos-Talk Archives (September 2000 Message tt00008)

Sept 5th 2000

	Re: Personality - Individuality - Consciousness
viewed Theosophically by HPB

Dear Steve:

Am I wrong?  Or, did HPB set the guide-lines for the use of the
terms "Personality"  (derived from 'mask - persona' - or the
evanescent, present human mind-intelligence)  and "Individuality"
(or the permanent SELF) in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY ?

As I read it,  PERSONALITY consists of the 4 'lower' Principles
[physical body, astral body, prana (vitality) and Kama (desires
and passions enlivened and individualized by the 'Lower-Manas')
and

INDIVIDUALITY consists of the remaining 3 immortal Principles:
(Manas (higher), Buddhi (wisdom), and,  3 ATMAN the Universal
SPIRIT -- of which a "ray" is said to inhere in each
Human as well as in every 'atom (Monad)' in the universe -- in a
word, the 7 principles are universally dispersed.  These
principles seem to act as the point of living power (perception
and will to progress) in every intelligent being (where
'intelligence' is defined as a sense of purpose and a basic and
individual observation of various laws of Nature).

She also says that the purpose of multiple incarnations (at the
human stage) is to enable the gradual conscious self-realization
of this fact: of the universally diffused (but also
individualized) SPIRIT residing in every least -- or greatest --
part of the whole UNIVERSE (or NATURE).

She also gives valuable keys to the study of the various aspects
and states of CONSCIOUSNESS which are operative in man and other
beings in Nature -- she directs attention to the program of the
PERFECTION of Self-Awareness through the process of multiple
births (Reincarnation) under the general Law (and the particular
personal and self-laws) of KARMA.  [ see also definition of
Consciousness:  GITA NOTES  WQJ -- p. 98-100 ]

>From these basic criteria she derives a few aphorisms:

Universal JUSTICE rules the world.

All individual and personal beings are subject to this unerring
LAW.

Nothing can be totally destroyed.

CONSCIOUSNESS is universally present in all beings from Atom to
Galaxy.

Consciousness (as the sense of "I am I") persists as a basis for
all the 'vehicles' (bodies) in which this self-reflective sense
resides.

Universal change is to be observed in all aspects of the living
vehicles (Physical and Astral bodies) while CONSCIOUSNESS is
operating in them.

Every being is an immortal on its individual "path" towards
PERFECTION (or ALL-KNOWINGNESS).

Nature (as the whole of manifestation) is most carefully designed
and governed by hosts of advanced INTELLIGENCES which have passed
through the human stage, and have developed harmlessness,
compassion and wisdom (all-knowingness) as primary attributes,
which enable them to assist vast NATURE in her many programs --
which have PERFECTION of the Individual Consciousness as ultimate
goal.

I wonder if this cannot be of assistance.

If one desires to trace these views of HPB in THE KEY TO
THEOSOPHY, then one might look at pages:  KEY - 30-4 103 108 128
130-7 142-8 169-70 176 184-5 188-9 197 209

Best wishes,

Dallas


D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:06 AM
To: bn-sd@lists.lyris.net
Subject: [bn-sd] Re: Questions for Rich Taylor - PART I

Peter: "According to 'Theosophy' the personality lasts
at most for the period of a single lifetime.  A 'new'
personality is formed in the next incarnation."

This is certainly true if you are referring to the
"personality" that is documented in your local
courthouse.  Your birth certificate, and other
elements of the social fiction which is your
"personality" persist, but does anything non-physical?
 Or does the lower self die from moment to moment and
then get reborn from moment to moment?  The answer
depends on how we precisely define "personality."

Peter: "As I understand it.... The skandhas are made
up of elementals.  It could be said they are
particular combinations of elementals, drawn from
different 'levels' / regions of the astral light and
given a particular combination / form by the
kama-manasic impetus of the person concerned."

Do you perchance remember where you got this?  I
remember that when the man dies, his skandhas scatter
in the form of "human" elementals, but did not pick up
that they already were elementals prior to that time.
Your interpretation does make intuitive sense, though.

Peter: "Our desire nature, the Kama Rupa, becomess a
distinct body only *after the death* of the physical
form.  This 'body' is the accumulated result of the
material thoughts and desires built up, unchecked,
through the lifetime of the personality."

Well, yes, but this is something I find a bit
confusing.  My understanding is that when an occult
letter is teleported through space, what happens is
that the force of cohesion which causes the atoms in
the physical letter to hold together is suspended,
with the result that the atoms scatter into space and
the letter disintegrates, as it were.  What then
remains is the Kama-Rupa of the letter (even inanimate
objects have kama-rupas, since the "desire" energy is
the energy of creation and the basis of all
manifestation.)  That kama-rupa can be projected into
space, just as the kama-rupa (or mayavi-rupa to be
more precise) of a man can, and sent instantly to any
distance, at which point it becomes the matrix as it
were for a new solid form to coalesce around.  The
suspended force of cohesion is then reinstated at a
distance from the point at which the original letter
disintegrated, and an occult letter materializes.  The
atoms of the materialized letter are not the same as
the atoms of the original letter, even though the two
may be objectively indistinguishable.  Same thing with
gloves, tea cups, etc.

We are told that it could not be the linga sarira of
the letter which is projected into space, because that
can only be projected a short distance.  It is
therefore the fourth principle.  This phenomenon
therefore demonstrates numerous occult principles,
among them that EVERYTHING has an incorporeal form on
the basis of which material atoms coalesce.  I don't
see how the corporeal form could persist after the
incorporeal form has disintegrated.

Peter: "The length of time between incarnations
appears to be taken up mainly by the stay in
Devachan."

Yes, but my point was, WHY would the stay in devachan
take so long?

Peter: "The Linga Sarira is said to dissipate very
quickly
after the death of the physical form."

Do you remember where you found this?  My
understanding was that linga sarira could only
disintegrate AFTER the dissolution of the physical
body, since the physical body is a physical
manifestation of its astral counterpart.  It was to
hasten this dissolution that Theosophists practice
cremation.  Mummification, as was done in the case of
Lenin in Moscow, would theoretically prolong it.
Lenin, as a committed atheist, would according to
Theosophy have no devachan experience, but this
presents no problem because he could either undergo
(a) a prolonged period of unconsciousness (which we
are told is what atheists experience instead of
devachan), or (b) a prolonged period in the world of
Hungry Ghosts (kama-loka, or preta-loka.)

Presumably the way "mother's marks" works is that the
mother's emotional energy affects the linga sarira of
her unborn, which then changes the appearance of the
infant during development.  The effect on the physical
body is achieved via the linga sarira, in other words.
 Scientists pooh pooh the idea of "mother's marks" but
I have seen astonishing examples of this phenomenon
with my own eyes, and believe HPB was right to believe
in them.

Peter: "Since the task of the Initiate is to slay the
Kama Rupa whilst alive, ie during incarnation, we may
deduce that the death of the Kama Rupa does not depend
on the dissipation of the Linga Sarira."

You said yourself that the kama-rupa does not come
into existence until after death, so it would be
impossible to "slay" it before death.  I think what
you meant to say was that the adepts try to draw
energy away from the kama principle by focusing on
spiritual matters.

This seems to be implied by your next statement:

Peter: "After physical death and the separation of the
higher
principles from the kama manasic nature the Kama Rupa
survives as a distinct form (a shell, elementary) for
a time dependent on the strength of those thought
desires which comprise its nature.  I believe HPB
states it could last up to 200 300 years in some
cases."

The "thought-desires" as you call it are known as
tanha in Sanskrit, which becomes trishna (thirst) in
Pali.  This is roughly the same as the will-to-live in
specifically corporeal form, which would be weakened
supposedly by the practice of detachment, one of the
probationary path qualifications.

Your quote from the Collected Writings, which states
that: "These [karmic] traits and passions pursue and
fasten on the yet plastic third and fourth principles
of the child" makes it clear the child was presumed to
HAVE a fourth principle whether or not it was called a
kama-rupa.  Prior to death it is probably more
accurate to say that it was a mayavi-rupa (literally
"Illusory Form") but I don't think it would be
accurate to say that the astral body (linga sarira)
was in no way dependent on it.  If the astral body is
dependent on the mayavi-rupa (or kama-rupa after
death) then it follows logically that it could not
cease to exist completely (disintegrate) until the
rupa on which it is dependent had ceased to exist
(disintegrate).

Part of the theory behind precognition and vibroturgy
(the more common name for it slips my mind at the
moment) seems to be that the astral counterpart of an
event precedes the physical manifestation (allowing it
to be seen clairvoyantly becore its physical
manifestation) and also persists after it is over in
our time (permitting a sensitive to see it
clairvoyantly years later.)  Of course, according to
SPR data, most precognitions are of one's own
impending death, which has a different explanation.

Peter: "HPB states that members of the Occult
Brotherhood who have not yet progressed far enough to
forego their Devachan (an Adept has no Devachan) may
be *helped* out of Devachanic bliss before their due
time in order for them to help in the work of the
Lodge."

This is an ancient idea in India.  I believe it is
also to be found in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

Peter: "HPB told Judge he was such a one helped out of
Devachan."

Judge as I recall did not die in the usual sense, but
merely transmigrated from his dying body to the dying
body of a child, which he took over once its former
inhabitant no longer had any use for it.  As we
discussed some time ago, this is the phenomenon known
in India as Avesa and in Tibet as Pho-wa.

Peter: "From a Theosophical point of view, the
doctrine of Anatman is very clear with regards the
personality, Kama Manas.  But it is less straight

forward with regards the INDIVIDUALITY."

Your quote from The Collected Writings:

"It is the PERSONALITY alone which changes; the real
reincarnation principle, the EGO remains always the
same"

Seems to suggests that HPB believed in a persistent
self, although there are unfortunately other passages
which weaken this thesis.  I suspect this is the
correct interpretation, but have difficulty reaching a
state of complete satisfaction because of the subtlety
of the matter, and the ambiguity of some of the
comments.

SS



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