Theos-Talk Archives (August 2000 Message tt00010)

Dan,
it will be my pleasure to read your comments. If you can get your hands on
the following two works (and can read a little italian), they will be
helpful:

    "Le realizzazione della conoscenza del Supremo immoto
(Paramaksarajnanasiddhi)" by Raniero Gnoli (Rome, 1997)
- a translation of the key parts of the Vimalaprabha (the most important
work, perhaps in all of the "books of Kiu-te"). Gnoli chooses to translate
parama-akshara into "Supremo immoto" or Supreme immutable, aggreable to my
orientation.

    P. M. Modi "Akshara - A Forgotten Chapter in the History of Indian
Philosophy" (Sri Satguru, Delhi 1982 reprint of 1932 ed.). It contains many
references to this "immutable" in upanishads, Mahabharata etc.

    The 3 dissertations mentioned are also very helpful, but Hartzell
chooses some translations which made me blush, fx. "chyuti" ("fall from a
divine state", in this case "Shukra", Venus) he translates "ejaculation" and
"Shukra" becomes "bliss" (orgasm).

    The study of this work constitute the last part of the Gelugpa tantric
college ("adept school"), and is known to very few tibetan buddhist (most
have never heard of this work), and a handful of western scholars. It
covers: seven macrocosmic principles, seven microcosmic ditto, seven
initiations, practical occultism, properties of Akasha, the Supreme
Immutable, the history of Shambhalla, etc. A  work as encyclopedic as the
SD.

    The philosophical excesises of Void by Nagarjuna is at the end of the
esoteric scale, studied by most tibetan buddhist. Note that both Nagarjuna
and Aryasanga are connected to tantric doctrines in the tibetan tradition
(an idea refuted by  most western scholars). That is - like Tsong-kha-pa and
our present Dalai lama and most other well-educated, tibetan lamas, they had
a secret doctrine (partly orally transmitted), and a public (a philosophy or
perhaps an ethical system) based on the former.

    To draw a parallel: Should modern theosophical societies conduct their
teaching in a similar way to the buddhist monastic schools, the students
would have to wait 25-40 years before moving to the SD, and only handed the
book after committing themselves to silence for the rest of their lives. In
the case of the Kalacakra Colleges only a few dozens of a generation would
ever go so far  The apex of Gelugpa scholarship.

Kim

"2,500 years after I have passed away into Nirvana, the Highest Doctrine
will become spread in the country of the red-faced people."

-Shakyamuni Buddha to the goddess Vimalaprabha, as recounted in Bu-ston's
History of Buddhism in India and Tibet.
[page 105. Vimalaprabha is the name of the work mentioned above, "The Great
Commentary" the timeline is - now, the land is.....hmmm]

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Caldwell <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
To: <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 4:36 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: The Gelugpa Tradition and THE SECRET DOCTRINE on
the Absolute


>
> Thanks, Kim, for your comments.
>
> I will try to follow up on these items you are
> referring to. Once I reread and study your email I'll
> try to make a few comments.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> --- Kim Poulsen <kpoulsen@vip.cybercity.dk> wrote:
> > Dan,
> > a few short notes on the question of a buddhist
> > Absolute:
> >
> > Most tibetan buddhists, including the gelugpa,
> > divide their beliefs in an
> > esoteric and exoteric part. The exoteric part is
> > typically something like
> > Nagarjuna's philsophy of Void, described below [btw
> > the relation between the
> > void and svabhaava - the manifestation of Self as a
> > part of that void is
> > esoteric in itself]
> >     The esoteric part is usually one or more tantric
> > lineages, orally
> > transmitted, and kept very secret to this day.
> >     The only major tantric commentary, translated in
> > part into a western
> > language, has only  recently been made available. It
> > is the Vimalaprabha,
> > the great commentary on the Kalachakra Tantra, a
> > major object of research
> > for David Reigle (a fine scholar and something of
> > the closest to a *true*
> > theosophist I can imagine)
> >     And now for the Absolute - this work, especially
> > in its fifth book, the
> > book of "dzny'a na" teaches the principle called the
> > "parama akshara" or
> > Supreme/Absolute Immutable, the same name used for
> > ages in indian philosophy
> > for the Absolute principle (the other being Param
> > brahma). To remove any
> > doubts on the identity the Vimalaprabha uses the
> > same qualities (jnana and
> > bliss) as the Vedanta for this principle, and also
> > associates it with the
> > Turiya state of consciousness (as do the Vedanta
> > philosophy - and HPB).
> >    This secret doctrine of the Kalacakra tantra is
> > specifically associated
> > with the gelugpa, especially its chiefs, the Dalai
> > lama, etc. It is also
> > considered secret to this day.
> >   The recent translations of the "Great Commentary"
> > are found in ph.d
> > dissertations by Ronald Newman (1986), Vesna Wallace
> > and James Hartzell (all
> > available through UMI), and in a little book by
> > Raniero Gnoli (translated
> > into italian).
> >     Should anyone want bibliograhic details or
> > discuss the philosophy of
> > this Absolute please e-mail me privately.
> >
> > Kim Poulsen
> >
> > ---- Original Message -----
> > From: Daniel Caldwell <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
> > To: <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 5:53 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: The Gelugpa Tradition and
> > THE SECRET DOCTRINE on
> > the Absolute
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your comments below.  In this email I
> > will
> > > address just one comment of yours:
> > >
> > >
> > > I wrote:
> > >
> > > > > The quote:
> > > > > > "Dolpopa apparently teaches the first
> > > fundamental
> > > > proposition
> > > > > > of The Secret Doctrine, and Tsong-kha-pa
> > > > apparently
> > > > > > refutes it"
> > > >
> > > > > are the words of David Reigle in his book
> > > > BLAVATSKY'S
> > > > > SECRET BOOKS.  They are NOT mine.  It is David
> > > > > Reigle's opinion that Tsong-kha-pa refuted the
> > 1st
> > > > > Fundamental proposition as given in HPB's
> > Secret
> > > > > Doctrine.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank, you wrote in reply:
> > >
> > > > If this is so, then David is surely wrong. For
> > me
> > > > there is no difference between Tsongkhapa and
> > SD.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank, whatever you may think of David Reigle's
> > > research, here is what another researcher says
> > about
> > > the issue under discussion.  I quote BELOW his
> > letter
> > > to me which he has given me permission to quote on
> > > these forums.  The letter is from Rich Taylor:
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:51:10 EDT
> > > Subject: The Gelugpa Tradition and THE SECRET
> > DOCTRINE
> > > on the Absolute
> > >
> > > Daniel,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your comments -- they have jumped
> > started
> > > my dissertation work after too-long a hiatus.
> > >
> > > You are right about Tsong Kha Pa. (And of course,
> > your
> > > source Reigle is right about him.) It is a serious
> > > problem, and you can quote me on it.
> > > The Gelugs-Pas are ASBOLUTELY DEAD-SET against any
> > > absolute, of ANY  kind. Emptiness is the highest
> > > principle -- not a pleroma-emptiness like
> > > the Gnostics, but an emptiness even empty of
> > > emptiness. They are serious about this.
> > >
> > > It is a deconstructive position, not a positive
> > > assertion. I will find quotes to this effect. The
> > > Gelugs will oppose ANY positive assertion,
> > > just as Nagarjuna (their hero) did, and HPB makes
> > > plenty of them.
> > >
> > > Reigle continues to assert that "secret" books of
> > > Tsong Kha Pa will vindicate HPB's adoration of him
> > > while contradicting his public and well-known
> > > teachings. But this is a faith statement. The
> > > situation as it stands is that HPB is closer to
> > > Jonang-pas than any other known school of
> > Buddhism,
> > > and directly opposed (in principle) to the
> > Madhyamaka
> > > position of the Yellow Hats.
> > >
> > > I'll have more on this in a few weeks.
> > >
> > > Rich
> > > ------------------
> > >
> > > So Frank, here is another Blavatsky student who
> > has
> > > studied Tsong-kha-pa and has come to a conclusion
> > that
> > > confirms Reigle's.  Rich promises to provide some
> > > documentation and I will pass that along when he
> > gives
> > > it to me.
> > >
> > > Yes, Frank, I will call David Reigle and read him
> > what
> > > you say in your public email about him and Hank T.
> >  I
> > > don't know if he will want to respond.
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Daniel H. Caldwell
> > > DanielhCaldwell@yahoo.com
> > > Blavatsky Archives Online
> > > http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> > > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
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> > >
> > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
> > theos-talk@theosophy.com
> > >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> =====
> Daniel H. Caldwell
> DanielhCaldwell@yahoo.com
> Blavatsky Archives Online
> http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com/
>
> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
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