Theos-Talk Archives (May 2000 Message tt00141)

The mystic discerns the beginning
   and end of consciousness,
Produced and passing away.

>From nowhere it came
  to nowhere returns,
Of reality as empty as the conjurer's trick.

                        Lalitavistara Sutra


One has heard that what we perceive as Real is only apparently so.  To aim
high,
the space/time continuum, purusha/prakriti the land of this or that has only a
conventional
existence.  By continually detaching from the poles so to speak it would appear
that one
would eventually reach a state of so-called superconductivity.

Spencer

Eugene Carpenter wrote:

> Please tell me more about this.  This is very interesting.
>
> Gene
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Spencer <kellogg@west.net>
> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Mathematics, Spinoza, Leibniz
>
> >Was taught once that what we apparently see as, ... -1, 0, 1, ... is
> actually
> >an illusion
> >and what may actually be happening is more akin to 0, 1, 0 as visually
> >demonstrated
> >by the Tibetan dorje.
> >
> >Spencer
> >
> >
> >Eugene Carpenter wrote:
> >
> >> Spencer,
> >>
> >> Yes. Yes. Yes.  How to relax into the Zero!  I love it!  I can argue,
> well,
> >> that the zero can be symbolized by the empty set and that the set is  "a
> one
> >> that can be thought of as a many"(the many cancels out into a unity, a
> >> singularity) therefore the symbol of zero(the circle)(the empty set) is
> also
> >> the symbol for the expression of DIVINE LOVE.  Relaxing into the
> expression
> >> of DIVINE LOVE is rather a nice purpose ain't it.  Zero is the EMPTY ONE.
> >> Relax already, relax.
> >>
> >> Gene
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Spencer <kellogg@west.net>
> >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> >> Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 5:05 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Mathematics, Spinoza, Leibniz
> >>
> >> >When thinking about the unrestricted Fibonacci sequence, 0, 1, 1, 2, 3,
> 5,
> >> 8,
> >> >13, 21, 34, 55, ...,
> >> >before there can even be a 2 there first must be knowledge of another 1.
> >> >Curious.  The key
> >> >then would seem, how to relax into the zero.
> >> >
> >> >Spencer
> >> >
> >> >Eugene Carpenter wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Beautifully written.  I agree with everything you have said.  Once one
> >> has
> >> >> been initiated into the community of Souls, however, one needs to know
> >> that
> >> >> from that perspective Pure Mathematics is a language more suited to
> the
> >> >> pursuit of the Theos Sophia, perhaps.  Much confusion continues as
> good
> >> and
> >> >> probably initiated disciples continue to cling to ordinary academic
> and
> >> >> street language rather than take the time to understand the
> mathematical
> >> key
> >> >> somewhat, particulary that which pertains to the ZERO, THE ONE, and
> the
> >> >> great illusion, THE TWO.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thankyou so much for taking the time to address some of my interests.
> I
> >> >> feel much more welcomed into the group.  I had just written earlier
> today
> >> >> that I felt sad that no one had responded.  You have healed that
> >> saddness!
> >> >>
> >> >> You seem to know alot, unlike me, about Leibniz and Spinoza.  T'would
> >> make a
> >> >> wonderful book!
> >> >>
> >> >> Love,
> >> >> Gene
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: ASANAT@aol.com <ASANAT@aol.com>
> >> >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> >> >> Cc: ARASantaFE@aol.com <ARASantaFE@aol.com>; Elliot Ryan
> >> <nppress@vais.net>;
> >> >> csanabri@skadden.com <csanabri@skadden.com>; Armando Verea
> >> <averea@juno.com>
> >> >> Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 12:00 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Mathematics, Spinoza, Leibniz
> >> >>
> >> >> >In a message dated 4/27/00 2:15:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> >> >ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> ><<  I think I can irritate the hell out of mathematicians and show
> them
> >> >> that
> >> >> >pure
> >> >> > mathematics is about as close as one can get to esoteric philosophic
> >> >> roots.
> >> >> > And, finally, I love this, that HPB wrote:(I paraphrase)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If one understands the philosophy of Leibniz and the philosophy of
> >> Spinoza
> >> >> > and harmonizes the conflicts between these two philosophers one has
> the
> >> >> > whole of the spirit of esoteric philosophy.  (And she goes on to
> write
> >> >> that
> >> >> > Spinoza is a subjective Pantheist and Leibniz is an objective
> >> Pantheist.)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is this last paragraph that states the challange to theosophy in
> our
> >> >> time
> >> >> > if one wishes bridge the apparent gap between esoteric philosophy
> and
> >> >> > western science.
> >> >> > I've no training in philosophy or mathematics, except the basics,
> but I
> >> >> can
> >> >> > cheerlead others into getting this job done.  Let's harmonize the
> >> >> conflicts
> >> >> > between Leibniz and Spinoza and thereby have a philosophy that can
> >> >> harmonize
> >> >> > the conflicts between our transpersonal souls and our personalities.
> >> >> Let's
> >> >> > let the world know, loud and clear, and in their own language, that
> HPB
> >> is
> >> >> > the greatest source of information about Life that the world as seen
> >> for
> >> >> > hundreds of years.  The moment has come.
> >> >> > Love,
> >> >> > Eugene >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Dear Eugene,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'd like to share a couple of thoughts on your very thoughtful
> message.
> >> >> >The first, concerning the place of mathematics & "esoteric
> philosophic
> >> >> >roots."  According to HPB & her teachers, the ancient wisdom MUST be
> >> >> >understood in terms of seven keys.  The mathematical key is one of
> >> those.
> >> >> >But -- again, according to HPB & her teachers -- the MASTER KEY that
> >> MUST
> >> >> be
> >> >> >turned FIRST before any of the others can have any efficacy, is the
> >> >> >PSYCHOLOGICAL or MYSTICAL KEY.  That is the key that stands for
> >> INITIATION,
> >> >> >TRANSFORMATION.  If that key is not turned first, we are told, we'll
> end
> >> up
> >> >> >in confusion, conflict, or worse -- in black magic.  (If you wish to
> see
> >> >> >specific references to what I've just said, please read my papers on
> >> "The
> >> >> >Secret Doctrine, Krishnamurti, and Transformation," and (in two
> parts)
> >> >> >"Transformation:  Vital Essence of HPB's Secret Doctrine."  They can
> >> both
> >> >> be
> >> >> >downloaded by going to www.teosofia.com.
> >> >> >So from an esoteric perspective, mathematics is useless, even
> dangerous,
> >> if
> >> >> >there is not first transformation going on in one's life.  For the
> >> dangers
> >> >> of
> >> >> >mathematics in particular (& of science in general) when uninformed
> by
> >> >> >theosophical states of awareness, please witness the present rape of
> the
> >> >> >whole planet -- which could not happen without mathematicians &
> >> >> "scientists"
> >> >> >-- or its possible destruction through some idiotic system-monger
> >> pushing
> >> >> >some button & blowing us all up to smithereens -- with technology
> >> created
> >> >> by
> >> >> >untransformed mathematics & science.
> >> >> >About Spinoza & Leibniz:  It strikes me rather intensely that what is
> by
> >> >> far
> >> >> >most relevant in the work of these two men is almost always ignored,
> >> when
> >> >> >they are studied from an academic perspective.  To me what truly
> matters
> >> >> >about them both is the saintliness & insight-compassion that
> saturates
> >> >> their
> >> >> >work.  That saintliness & insight-compassion is what informs every
> >> single
> >> >> >thing they had to say, & strikes me as their real source.  But
> >> >> academically,
> >> >> >we are told that Spinoza was "philosophizing by doing geometry, or
> >> >> >geometrizing by doing philosophy," & that Leibniz was "the
> monadologist,
> >> >> for
> >> >> >whom everything is reducible to incommensurable spiritual points."
> >> >> >Yes, Spinoza's great work, the Ethics, was written, as he put it in
> >> Latin,
> >> >> >"more geometrico" (in a geometrical way).  But if the saintliness
> that
> >> work
> >> >> >came from is ignored, its whole point WILL be ignored, as well.  At
> >> least
> >> >> >that's the way it strikes me.
> >> >> >In other words, & as in the esoteric teaching (as outlined above in
> >> terms
> >> >> of
> >> >> >the seven keys), there were first theosophical states of awareness --
> >> >> >transformation -- & then an attempt at expressing the reality of such
> >> >> states,
> >> >> >using a language that would be understandable & acceptable to the
> 17th
> >> >> >Century audience for whom it was primarily written.
> >> >> >I'll share with you what strikes me as eminently relevant about the
> work
> >> of
> >> >> >these two men, from an esoteric perspective:
> >> >> >Leibniz "starts" as if from the MICROCOSM, whereas Spinoza "starts"
> as
> >> if
> >> >> >from the MACROCOSM.  Spinoza is attempting to tell us "the way things
> >> are"
> >> >> >from "God's perspective."  Leibniz attempts to do the same, but
> >> seemingly
> >> >> >starting from "the monad," the "particular" unit which is actually
> like
> >> a
> >> >> >hologram of the entire universe, since it reflects the all within
> >> itself,
> >> >> as
> >> >> >a kind of universal DNA.
> >> >> >Esoterically, both are "right," insofar as they are both saying that
> >> there
> >> >> >MUST be the particular & the universal engaged simultaneously.  But
> >> >> >esoterically, none of this can really be spoken about, without making
> >> >> >colossal mistakes.  (This is, incidentally, a major "reason" why the
> >> >> ancient
> >> >> >wisdom has always been "hidden, occult.")
> >> >> >This oneness between the particular & the universal can only be a
> >> >> >PSYCHOLOGICAL process, an ACTION one engages in, not a merely
> >> INTELLECTUAL
> >> >> >consent or BELIEF.  If it is only the latter (which is what is done
> >> >> >everywhere with the work of these two men), one ends up in a
> >> self-centered
> >> >> >miasma, thinking that one now "understands better," whereas the fact
> is
> >> >> that
> >> >> >one has only succeeded in ACCEPTING a new system-based notion,
> without
> >> >> having
> >> >> >even the vaguest understanding, since one has not gone through the
> >> >> extremely
> >> >> >rigorous process of transformation, which was the source for these
> >> works,
> >> >> in
> >> >> >the first place.
> >> >> >This central esoteric "teaching" of the unity between the particular
> &
> >> the
> >> >> >universal (which are extraordinarily clumsy, inadequate, & misleading
> >> >> WORDS)
> >> >> >has been expressed in its most clear way, to my knowledge, in the
> work
> >> of
> >> >> J.
> >> >> >Krishnamurti.  A main reason for that, is that in K's work there is
> no
> >> >> >reference at all to any purely ANALYTICAL CONCEPTS.  Therefore, it is
> >> >> nearly
> >> >> >impossible, within K's work, to make the kinds of mistakes that used
> to
> >> be
> >> >> so
> >> >> >very common within as well as without esoteric circles.  The only way
> >> it's
> >> >> >possible to make such mistakes within K's work is by grossly
> >> >> misrepresenting
> >> >> >them.
> >> >> >This is VITAL, because if & to the extent one persists in the belief
> >> that
> >> >> the
> >> >> >analytical mind is in a position to yield valuable "insights" into
> THAT
> >> >> WHICH
> >> >> >IS, to that extent one will be saturated with, & promoting,
> confusion,
> >> >> >conflict, & division, both psychologically & globally.
> >> >> >With affection,
> >> >> >Aryel
> >> >> >
> >> >> >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
> >> >> >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
> >> >> >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
> >> >>
> >> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
> >> >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
> >> >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
> >> >
> >>
> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
> >>
> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
> >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
> >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
> >
>
> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
begin:vcard 
n:Kellogg;Spencer
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
email;internet:kellogg@west.net
x-mozilla-cpt:;1
fn:Spencer Kellogg
end:vcard