Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tt00017)

April 4th

See notes below, please

Dal

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of bjs
Sent:	Saturday, April 03, 1999 7:25 PM
To:	theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject:	Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma

<<As I see it the question is not of a good or a bad rebirth.
The
main question is :  does KARMA exist ?  does it operate?>>

There are, of course, many ways to define or look at karma. One
is
rewards and punishments, a moralistic or ethical view which
inherently
sees reinarnation as an endless wheel or rebirths. This is, in
the
Buddhist view, a nightmare view that Buddha's fourth law is
directed to
oppose. I agree with Buddha on this one.

I feel very very strongly that karma exists. I have personally
felt the
effects of what I call karmic backlash. I took a personal vow
many years
ago to let my past karma come to me right now in this life, and I
guess
at least some of it took me up on it.  And yes, I think it does
exist
over lifetimes. However, I am Buddhist enough to hope that it can
all
end in a flash of enlightenment some day.

------

IN MY QUESTIONING, I AM NOT SPECIALLY CONCERNED IN HOW THE
BUDDHIST DEFINITIONS ARE PHRASED.  I AM SEEKING FOR DIRECT
EXPRESSION OF MY/YOUR UNDERSTANDING.

-------

>>Is Universal, or is it in any way restricted by anyone's views
of
it ?>>

This is a trick question, Dallas, although I doubt that you meant
it to
be. The best answer here is a smile because a simple yes or no
would be
misleading. The best I can think of to say is that yes it is
universal
and yes it is restricted by one's view and can even be eliminated
by
one's view because in a sense it is one's view that is itself
one's
karma. Our viewpoint is itself karmic. So the view of liberation
from
karma is inherent within the law of karma. In another sense, we
karmically get into karma and then we karmically get ourselves
out of
it. I am smiling even as I write this.

------

NOT INTENDED AS A "TRICK" QUESTION.  I AM SERIOUS IN ASKING.  IT
IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE THAT OUR PERSONAL VIEWS ARE MODIFIED BY OUR
ADOPTED CONCEPTS.  I AM LOOKING FOR THE ANSWER FROM A
NON-ADOPTED, A FREE-MIND POINT OF VIEW.
PERSONALLY I DON'T CARE HOW THE QUESTIONS OR THOUGHT MAY BE
LABELED.  THEY ARE ASKED TO SECURE ANSWERS THAT ARE INDEPENDENT
OF SUCH PRIOR USAGE.

----------


<<If it works and does exist is it an aspect of the manifested as
well a the unmanifest Universe ?>>

Karma works or exists only within time and space. Cause and
effect
require time. Outside of our spacetime continuum (which is to say
our
7-plane solar system or universe as defined by HPB) there is no
karma or
evolution or action. Things that require time don't exist outside
of
time.

-----

HERE I DISAGREE AS NOT EVEN THE UNIVERSE CAN PASS FROM PRALAYA TO
MANVANTARA WITHOUT A CAUSE, AND TO ME THAT CAUSE IS AN ASPECT OF
KARMA WHICH IS AN INSEPARABLE PART OF THE ABSOLUTENESS.  IN FACT
TO BE EVEN MORE "OBSCURE" ONE MIGHT HAVE TO SAY THAT ANY
LIMITATION OF MANIFESTATION IS CAUSED BY SOME PRIOR
CHOICE/IMPOSED MODIFICATION, OF WHICH THERE IS A MEMORY IMPACTED
IN AKASA AND WHICH THEREAFTER FORMS A BASE FOR KARMA INDIVIDUAL
OR COLLECTIVE TO MANIFEST ALSO.

------


>>If it is an aspect of both or either, then such a division
would
make it separate and partial and therefore not UNIVERSAL.<<

It is universal because it acts throughout our universe as HPB
carefully
defines "universe." (i.e, within our spacetime continuum of 7
planes)

-------------

I AM AFRAID THAT I AM LOOKING EVEN BEYOND THOSE LIMITS.  NOTHING
COMES FROM NOTHING.  IF THERE IS "SOMETHING," THEN THERE IS AN
ANTECEDENT CAUSE - OR WE ARE BACK TO THE WHIMS OF SOME
EXTRA-KOSMIC INCOMPREHENSIBLE GODLING AGAIN.

------------------

<<What do you think it is supposed to be, and why is it there as
a
concept ?
Dal>>

I think karma is supposed to be a general law of cause and effect
through time that acts anywhere in our universe as that universe
evolves. It can only be totally eliminated or transcended (a much
better
word, I think) when time and space are transcended.

What do you think it is?

-------------------

I LIKE THE LAST STATEMENT, WHICH IS SIMPLE, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE
IT IS CORRECT TO MAKE MENTAL LIMITS AS TO THE "ETERNITY" OF THIS
UNIVERSE - AS ATTRIBUTED TO HPB (AND WHICH I AM FAMILIAR WITH) -
THERE HAS TO BE A PRIORITY (OBVIOUSLY MEASURED IN SOME FORM OF
"TIME") OF WHICH OUR "UNIVESE" IS THE EFFECT.  AND - I WOULD SAY,
LOGICALLY, THAT KARMA RULES THERE TOO.  KARMA IS JUST AS TIMELESS
AS THE CAUSELESS CAUSE AND THE ABSOLUTENESS.  BUT I CAN ONLY
CONJECTURE ABOUT THIS, AND CANNOT PROVE IT TO ANYONE BUT MYSELF.

Dal  (April 4 1999)

Jerry S


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