Theos-Talk Archives (March 1999 Message tt00238)

March 18th

Many thanks Gerry:

I see as usual that we agree on more things that not.  A
difference in phrasing makes some items more "prickly" than
others.

Dal

======================================

-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of
Gerald Schueler
Sent:	Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:21 AM
To:	theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject:	Theos-World Responses to Peter

>>Well.. I don't see how it helps or supports your view that self
forgiveness dissolves our individual Karma which is what you
seemed to
be saying at the begining of this thread.  This is what I was
responding
to, and what I believe Dallas and Louis were questioning.  Have I
misunderstood you?>>

Perhaps "helps" dissolve would be better phrasology?
What I really meant to say is that our personal karma
can be consumed in a single lifetime, and that in order
to do this one must first forgive others and then oneself.
Obviously forgiveness alone is not enough.


>>With  regards to single lifetime enlightenment.  ...Given HPB's
and
the Masters' concern for the suffering of humanity, would they
not have
spent at least some time encouraging us to eliminate our Karma
and
become 'enlightened' in this single lifetime if that were
possible?>>

It is not probable for 99.9% of us. My point is simply that
it is possible. I keep hearing Theosophists talk about
7 more lifetimes, and countless lifetimes, and so on,
and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that
therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy.
I am actually not championing escape from birth-death.
I rather see the goal as rebirth with full conscious
awareness and memory. But this can only come about
when the Wheel of Life is able to be broken because
of eliminating personal karma.


>>The single lifetime approach may be the view of some religions,
and we
are each entitled to whatever views we hold.  But as far as I can
see it
is not the view of Theosophy.>>

It is the view of Great Perfection, which HPB claimed to
know and respect. There is nothing at all in her teachings
that would suggest it is not possible. Another point that
I keep trying to make is that maybe this life IS our 7th.
How do we know that it is not? Theosophists seem to ignore
the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one.



<<...if we take into account what HPB and the Masters had to say
about
Chelas, then this 'beginning stage' alone seems lifetimes away
for the
vast majority of us.>>

This is an understandable, yet self-defeating attitude.
With this attitude, we will never even TRY.


>>Theosophy would say that what is gained in this life for that
individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of effort. >>

I would say that eveyone on this list has already had
millions of lifetimes or they wouldn't be interested in this
stuff.


>> Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free'
of
Karma.  What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves
the rest
of Humanity to suffer?  >>

The goal here is liberation, not entering nirvana, which
is another thing altogether. Our goal is the bodhisattva.
Our goal is to come back with full memory intact, for
the purpose of helping others lessen their karmic burdens.

Jerry S.




































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