Theos-Talk Archives (February 1999 Message tt00045)

Hi Rich (and others interested in 'cloning' and related theosophical
issues.)

> It is important to note that the clone is not merely an extension of an
> existing physical form.  It is a fully-formed duplicate, a completely
> developed additional form.  Twins and triples (if identical) also have the
> EXACT SAME genetic material.  In effect, they are clones.  Would anyone
> propose that there is only one astral model?  Or worse,  that
> only one of the bunch has a soul?

That's a good point Rich.  As I understand it, in 'natural' childbirth the
child shares the genetic material of the parents, but of course it still has
it's own astral double.  The process of birth from a cloned cell seems to be
identical to those births from 'test tube' and artificial insemination.
Once the fertilised cells are placed in the womb these in turn develop as in
childbirth from natural conception.  So, once again, there is no reason why
the developing foetus should not have it's own astral form and other lower
principles, and reincarnating Ego.

What makes 'cloning' importantly different is the effort to duplicate the
DNA in the cell, prior to fertilisation, to make it identical to that of
another person's body.  Genetic scientists assert that with genetic
engineering they will be able to accurately predict the growth of the body,
the kinds of illnesses incurred, the mental and physical attributes of the
child through out life and so on.   Hence the ethical concerns about
scientists futher attempting to manipule DNA to produce 'perfect' race based
on our personal wants and desires.

Theosophy puts a different view, as we know.  It states that the physical
and mental characteristics that we are born with are the result actions in
past lives, slightly influenced by the hereditory factors of race, and
guided by Karma.  More importantly, the true individuality is the
Reincarnating Ego, which can make choices, develops new characteristics and
so on.   So the idea that scientists can create someone who is indentical to
some one else and then predict their later development in life may simply be
misfounded, a science without a soul.

> HPB seems to indicate that the physical and the astral forms of
> all things in nature exist on the *SAME PLANE*.

Yes, she does, Rich, although she doesn't use the term "astral form" and
more than one "plane" appears to be involved.

"...the spiritual prototypes of all things exist in the immaterial world
before those things become materialised on Earth."  SD vol 1 p 58

When one reflects on the various references to "prototype" in the SD there
are clearly many levels of them.  For at one place HPB talks about those
exisiting in the Akaska, and in other places refers to those in the Astral
Light.  There are protypes of Dhyan Chohans,  Human Egos, and physical
forms. There are prototypes for human forms that are developed over large
period s (Rounds) that in turn are based on more 'etheral prototypes',
developed in earlier ronds.  So one gets a sense of a stepping down process.

HPB again:

"..for the Lotus plant exists not only as a miniature embryo in its seed (a
physical characteristic), but its prototype is present in an ideal form in
the Astral Light from "Dawn" to "Night" during the Manvantaric period, like
everything else, as a matter of fact, in this objective Universe; from man
down to mite, from giant trees down to the tiniest blades of grass.'
  SD vol 1 p63.

But does this mean there is a prototype present in ideal form for each and
every  mite and blade of grass that existed?  My own sense is that there is
a prototype for each 'kind' of form.  Thus there is a prototype for the
human body in general, 'trees' in general & so on. But there is a great deal
of variety as a result of evolution and karma.  For we also 'know' that
while the Linga Sharira is the astral prototype for our physical body during
incarnation, this is only temporary.  The astral body is one of the first
principles to disintegrate after death.  At the next incarnation a new one
is formed based on the general 'human prototype' and modified by Karmic
characteristics.


The above is offered more tentatively than might come across on the
'screen'.
There are a few more quotes below,

Best wishes,

Peter



HPB writes:

"Therefore our human forms have existed in the Eternity as astral or
ethereal prototypes; according to which models, the Spiritual Beings (or
Gods) whose duty it was to bring them into objective being and terrestrial
Life, evolved the protoplasmic forms of the future Egos from their own
essence. After which, when this human Upadhi, or basic mould was ready, the
natural terrestrial Forces began to work on those supersensuous moulds which
contained, besides their own, the elements of all the past vegetable and
future animal forms of this globe in them. Therefore, man's outward shell
passed through every vegetable and animal body before it assumed the human
shape."  SD vol 1 p282

"Occultism teaches that no form can be given to anything, either by nature
or by man, whose ideal type does not already exist on the subjective plane.
More than this; that no such form or shape can possibly enter man's
consciousness, or evolve in his imagination, which does not exist in
prototype, at least as an approximation."  SD vol 1 p282, footnote





-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com

Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.