Theos-Talk Archives (December 1998 Message tt00028)

>Jerry, please do not confuse me with Dallas.

OK. Since you jumped in seemingly against my position, I
just assumed that you sided with Dallas. My fault.


> What am I trying to prove?

Well, since you came into the discussion on the jivamukti,
I had to assume that your were trying to "prove" something
about it. As far as I know, there is really no way to do this.
We can throw a lot of conflicting quotes around, but I
am not sure what it would all mean.


>
>Let's see if I understand your position.  You seem to be asserting that
>"nirvana" is "a DISCARNATE state of very high spirituality".  Then you
>say that "in most schools [of Buddhism?] one becomes a jivamukta while
>alive and then enters nirvana [ONLY?] at death."
>

This is my understanding of the both the Hindu and Buddhist
teachings. Yes. While living we can enter a mental state called
samadhi. Samadhi has at least two main levels, and probably
lots of degrees to it. But it is my understanding that nirvana
is the complete "blowing out" of the human condition and is
therefore only entered into at death of the body. Now, if you
want to call the samadhi state nirvana, I wouldn't argue much
but see below, where HPB distinguishes the two.


>According to Dr. Hans Schumann in his book BUDDHISM:
>
>"Nirvana---in the Hinayana understood as victory over Samsara and the
>final exit from the world---is in the Mahayana taken as the becoming
>conscious of one's own absoluteness (=liberation)  and is a state of
>mental aloofness from, but within, the world which does not exclude
>active endeavour for the liberation of other beings." (92-93)
>

I don't have my library handy right now, but I could probably
quote you from Buddhist writers otherwise. When I look at the Tibetan
Vajrayana definition of samsara, it pretty much equates to HPB's
four lower cosmic planes. When I look at their definition of nirvana,
it pretty much equates to her upper three planes. Now HPB herself
states clearly that the 7th and highest plane is nirvana, so I am
not sure exactly how she saw the second and third planes, except
of course that they are spiritual. CWL equates nirvana to the third
plane downward, for example, and mahanirvana to the second,
if I remember correctly.

I would agree that nirvana has been used by some writers/schools
as a mental state and by others as a high spiritual realm with no
return for the rest of this manvantara. I tend to agree with HPB that
it is the 7th plane (See below), if not all three of the highest (in which
case we would have to split or divide "nirvana" into parts which may
or may not be acceptable).


>This underscores that there is no one definition of Nirvana that is
>agreed upon by all schools of Buddhism.  Dr. Charles Prebish in his
>HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF BUDDHISM writes: ...
>

Agreed. The Theravadin and Mahayana versions are quite different.
Actually, while on this, the Great Perfection school has its own rather
unique view-- one that I have discussed several times. It says
that both samsara and nirvana are a duality and both must be
transcended.


> This dictionary then states that
>in this context, "the attainment of nirvana is moksa."  On p. 650,
>concerning Moksa, the interesting statement is made:  "Its [Moksa's]
>attainment while alive (jivan-mukti) or discarnate (videha-mukti) marks
>the end of rebirth and suffering."
>

Well, I am familiar with Ramakrisna, Ramana Maharsi, and
other Hindu Teachers and they used moksha or mukti (liberation)
rather than nirvana, as far as I recall. Nirvana is not generally
used in Hinduism or Vedanta and when it is, it is probably
borrowed.

>
>As far as what HPB writes about Nirvana, I quote but 2 extracts:
>
>Nirvana is "the state of absolute existence and absolute consciousness,
>into which the Ego of a man who has reached the highest degree of
>perfection and holiness during life goes, after the body dies, and
>occasionally, as in the case of Gautama Buddha and others, during
>life."  THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, P. 232.
>
>"An Arhat sees Nirvana during life.  For him it is no post-mortem state,
>but Samadhi, during which he experiences all Nirvanic bliss." VOICE OF
>THE SILENCE p. 88.
>
>In light of the above material, Jerry, do you still hold to the view
>that was given at the beginning of this email?


Pretty much.

Dan, I am absolutely surprised at your research. What about
Inner Group Teachings? (It has your name on it.) How about
looking at page 36 "...he rises to the seventh plane (Nirvana)."
BTW in this same paragraph she clearly says that the fourth
plane (upward or third down) is associated with samadhi.
So here she seems to separate samadhi from nirvana.

All of this stuff is confusing and I suspect that nirvana and
samadhi can almost be used interchangeably. My personal
preference is to go with samadhi as a mental state that
corresponds with nirvana as the highest spiritual realm
available to us in this universe.

Jerry S.