Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tt00534)

In a message dated 11/28/98 7:46:07 PM, DAL wrote:

>Nov 28th

> From: Jerry Schueler
> Sent:	Saturday, November 28, 1998 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: More on Karma

(LHM)
>>Extrapolating from the Book of Dzyan, the SD commentaries, and
>the three fundamental propositions or principles, we can infer that not
>>only does the Absolute consist of "abstract motion" -- which can only be
>>imagined as infinite spins around a point of zero attributes -- but,
further, >>these spins must be the resolution of and contain all the
information (in the >>form of holographic interference patterns) experienced
by the previous ,
>>universe, holistically, prior to its maha pralaya.

(Jerry)
>Well, I for one, can't make such an inference. Motion is an expression,
>together with Space, of the Absolute. The Absolute is outside of
>space-time, while Motion (purusha, subjectivity) and Space
>(prakriti, objectivity) are inside.
>
>DALLAS :
>I THINK THIS IS CORRECT == HPB AND THE SD STATE THAT WE CANNOT
>MAKE ANY COMPARISON BASED ON OUR SET OF LIMITED PERCEPTIONS WITH
>THE ABSOLUTE.

(LHM)
None is made.  The story is picked up from the first line of the Book of Dzyan
which DOES, in its following stanzas, describe the nature of the rootless root
and gives the formulas for its ultimate expansion into this physical universe.

>IN "TRANSACTIONS" (P. 94-5 , ULT Edition vi, COMMENTS ON Stanza
>3 - 1 "The last vibrations of the seventh eternity...- etc."  HPB
>MAKES CLEAR WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "EMANATION" AND
>"RADIATION."  AN ASPECT OF THE ABSOLUTENESS RADIATES PERIODICALLY
>UNDER KARMA (WHICH IS ITSELF) THE MANIFESTED - WHICH IS BASED ON>
>THE PERVIOUS "MANIFESTATION."

(LHM)
Yes. . . As was said, the absolute abstract motion, could only have been
represented, both before after initial "awakening" of the "eternal mother", as
abstract spin.   That is, as beginningless and endless motion around a
zero-(laya)-point of pure "emptiness"--which, in itself, as an infinitesimal
nothingness, must remain entirely unknown to finite minds (that cannot
"picture" it).  However, the motion itself can be pictured, symbologically, as
an endless mobius knot consisting of non-dimensional, although localized,
lines of force, circling around an infinitesimal point--yet having no physical
or multi dimensional existence.
>
>>This would, of course, also include
>>the spiritualized memories of each individual ego, as it
>>traveled through its myriads of incarnated existences during this prior
period.
>
>DALLAS :
>HPB CORROBORATES THIS IN "ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA"
>which I quoted a few days ago.  I ALSO POSTED SEVERAL PAGE
>REFERENCES IN S.D. WHICH ENDORSE THIS VIEW. (EXAMPLE:  SD I 371, 380)

(Jerry)
>I do not believe for a second that such memories exist, nor are they needed.

>Dallas:  I DON'T GET YOUR LOGIC IN THIS.  OF COURSE IF YOU
>BELIEVE THAT ALL IS NON-ESSED AT THE END OF A MAHA-KALPA THEN YOU
>ARE RIGHT, BUT THAT WOULD NOT BE ECONOMICAL NOR WOULD THERE BE A
>"SEED" FOR THE NEXT MAHA MANVANTARA.   I SUPPOSE WE CAN OPPOSE
>OPINIONS FOREVER !

(LHM)
Sure. . . As long as there are those who will not or cannot study the SD and
understand its inherent logic..  But, nevertheless, since the overall energy
of the universe, both manifest and unmanifest, cannot be created nor
destroyed, there has to be, in its essential abstract motion--always remaining
intact--the "patterns" of experience, or memory of all previous
manifestations.

>>Since these primal spins ("seven robes of the eternal mother")
>>also represent the different planes extending from the past,
>>present and future spiritual worlds to the material worlds--when the
"mother"
>>awakens and enters into its new maha manvantara, all these spins emanate,
>>(or radiatively "inflate"--as post-modern science expresses it) and step
down
>>through the vibratory fields of the three logos until, at the "big bang". .
.

(Jerry)
>The Big Bang theory has recently come under a lot of fire. It has to be
>tweeked a lot in order to force it to fit the world we see today
>(which is NOT homogenous or linear at all). I prefer S Hawkings'
>no-boundary model which is slowly gaining ground in physics.

>DALLAS:
>SO DO I, AND I THINK WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY IF WE
>TRY TO PROJECT IN OUR MINDS, CONCERNING THE ABSOLUTE, ANY OF THE
>MATERIAL CONCEPTS WE HAVE DEVELOPED.  SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT
>THERE ARE CENTERS OF FORCE AND ENERGY WHICH ARE ETERNAL IN THE
>ULTIMATE SENSE - AND I WOULD CALL THAT LOGICAL.  NO MATTER HOW
>EXTENSIVE THE TIME, DISTANCE OR MOVEMENT, IF WE TRY TO APPLY
>THESE TO "MEASURE" OR "DEFINE" THE ABSOLUTE WE WILL FAIL.  SD I P
>27 "Book of Dzyan, Stanza I, verse 8 :  SPEAKS OF THE
>"UNCONSCIOUS PULSATION OF Life" in "Universal Space" - and it
>also states that this is "SENSED BY THE OPEN EYE OF THE DANGMA."
>Implying, I believe that there was a type of CONSCIOUSNESS which
>was not "asleep," or non-essed" in the Maha-Kalpic-Pralaya.

(LHM)
Nor is it "asleep" or "non-essed" NOW.  Those who can see through it (which is
the non-local zero-point itself that resides within us all)--the "third eye"
as spoken of by the occultists--will SEE whatever there is to see that can be
seen by looking within.  As for Hawkings, he did not deny that there was
something prior to his "basin" that may be likened to a "big bang" (which we
should rather call the "sudden awakening" into materiality--a moment we all
experience at the instant flash of opening our eyes upon awakening from
sleep).  He only said that his new theory starts after that initially timeless
moment, and he can say nothing about its prior existence -- since,
scientifically, with reference to the mathematics of quantum cosmology, he can
only deal with the post "inflationary" aspect of the physical universe which,
in itself, must be unbounded.  This is entirely consistent with theosophy
which concludes that "the universe has its center everywhere (the non-local
zero-point) and its circumference NOWHERE"  Many post quantum physicists such
as Penrose, Hameroff, Sarfatti, etc, have already begun to mathematically see
beyond the boundaries of Hawkings' "basin of reality" (as HPB predicted would
happen at the end of this century). Howevver, most science is based on
materiaism or physicalism, and has a long way to go, before all sciientists
will accept, for example, my multi-dimensional ABC field theory of
consciousness which closely follows the scientific teachings in the S.D.

>>Understanding that all these rays, from spirit through mind to matter,
>>emanate from the one source may give us the inner "picture" that
>>answers all of the above questions. . .  And, whose answer could only be?
(1)
>>Because it was always there, (2) it always had it, (3) the fundamental laws
of
>>spin or cycles guide it, and (4) its ultimate goal is for us to find out
>>who and what we really are, where we are going, and how we get there.

(Jerry)
>This sounds like good answers.

>>Its value to us is only in understanding it, and placing our individual
>>nature's in harmony with the nature of the Universe by working
>>with its fundamental LAW  of Karma, or harmonious cyclic action (based
>>solely on original s(p)in:-)--and, thereby, realizing who we are, where we
>>came from, why we made the trip, and how we will be able to
>>return--immensely, if not infinitely wiser than when we started this cycle
of >>our existence.

(Jerry)
>Well, I agreed with you right up to the last business of being
>"infinitely wiser than when we started" which implies a spiral
>rather than a circle. I have a lot of trouble with spirals, which
>have to start and end somewhere. Circles are neater because
>they have no beginning or end points. A circle takes us right
>back to where we started, sort of like assuming our Original Face.

>DALLAS :
>How about a spiral which is part of the original carry over - if
>we are dealing with true eternity and true immortality we cannot
>determine a "beginning."  The only thing we think we are
>determining is the proximate area of the "present" as the future
>passes on back into the "past" each millisecond.

(LHM)
Correct.

(Jerry)
>A circle may be neater because they are non-limited, but they are
>also stagnant, as the "inane beatitude of pure Spirit" might be;
>but, fortunately that is not so and progress of some kind is
>always noticeable.

(LHM)
A circle goes nowhere.  But a spiral can constantly expand and rise (or fall)
layer upon layer as a dynamic and ever progressing vortex of continually
increasing (or diminishing) active energy potentialities--as it carries along
with it, its modulated holographic patterns of geometrized experiential
information.

As for beginning or end. . . Such a spiral line of force (of which there are
an infinite number) can be pictured symbolically, as emanating from the single
zero-point center and expanding spirally outward, and then, after reaching the
maximum amplitude--depending on its initial energy--contracting spirally
inward to pass back through the zero-point and out the other side to repeat
the negative phase of the continuous loop--much like traveling on a "Mobius
strip" or "Klein bottle" which continually and sequentially alternates the
traveler from inside to outside and back to inside, ad infinitum--with one
side representing the manvantara or awakened universe, and the other, the
pralaya or sleeping universe.  A circular or spherical (symbolic) picture of
this expansion-contraction is best represented by the Taoists' Tai-Chi (primal
beginning)--also called "yin-yang" (receptive- creative) symbol.

The amount of energy contained in either the sleeping or awakened state would
always remain identical in each expansion-contraction cycle.  (Although the
Total energy could diminish if there are leakages of material energy at the
outer interface of the expanding universe with the surrounding emptiness.)
But, since the universal bubble should remain in a balanced state with its
surroundings for the "life of Brahma", what material energy may be lost
through contraction into black holes, may be recovered by the material energy
expansion out of quasars.  (Although this may not stop the ultimate losses due
to chaos, random action and indeterminacy factors).

This could imply that the universe, always is in a state of flux, change, or
entropy, and would have a "life" far longer than the life of this solar system
or, perhaps, even our galaxy--an infinitesimal speck in the vastness of the
universe composed of many millions of galaxies and multiple billions of stars.
. .  The extent of which we couldn't even hope to imagine.  (Although we can
picture it--as far as the Hubble can reach.;-)

Best wishes,

LHM