Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tt00434)

Nov 24th 1998

Jerry:

Again there is much that I would agree with, but, see notes
below:

Dal

> From: Jerry Schueler
> Sent:	Tuesday, November 24, 1998 5:36 AM
> Subject: How "facts" can be illusive

>1. How do you define the "you" that you claim exists?
>
>DALLAS:
>I THINK THAT IS EVIDENT.  IT IS A POINT OF SUBJECTIVE
>CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH IS AT THE CORE  OF MY BEING, AND I ASSUME
YOU
>ARE SIMILARLY ENDOWED, AS IS EVERY OTHER HUMAN, AND POTENTIALLY
>EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE UNIVERSE.
>

No, Dallas, it is not at all "self-evident."  Any sense of self
that is
self-evident is an illusion. A great master at the end of the
last century called Ramana Maharshi used a great exercise. He
would ask "who am I?" After discarding the physical body, the
emotions , the mind, and so on, he would arrive at a point that
was similar to the anatma of Buddhism. We are, in our essence, a
consciouness-center, a divine Monad, that has no sense of "self"
or sense of individuality at all.

DALLAS

I am familiar with R M's process It is used theosophically far
anterior to his employment of it, I believe.

And when you get back to the indefinable point from which
CONSCIOUSNESS and PERCEPTION emerge on this plane of illusions
and limitations, you are left with a totally non-physical base
that cannot be defined by us using analogies from this side.

Yet, its very existence, as a logical necessity is not answered
by the word "ANATMA" which roughly translated into English is
"NOT THE SPIRIT."

I agree it is not the SPIRIT in manifestation but the "hyperlink"
to the REAL AND UNIVERSAL ABSOLUTE SPIRIT which is never to be
described or limited by our conceptions.  However there is no
reason why we should not accept its EXISTENCE  (or REALITY)  as
an essential philosophical, logical BENESS.  HPB hints at this
several times in the SD, as for instance on p. 130 top Vol. 1,
where she speaks of the TWO ONES.




>2. How do you define "universe" or "world" that you claim
exists?
>
>DALLAS:
>THE TOTAL ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH I, YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE DWELLS
>AND HAS THEIR "BEING."
>

Your description here is what Buddhism calls samsara. It is maya.
An
illusion.

DALLAS	Agreed but that does not make it any less real for those
who are immersed in some one or other aspect of it.
Right now you and I are very "real" as presenting individual and
personal points of view.

The question is:  How are we able to do this ?

Has it any continuing value ?

How does such an exchange of this benefit either one of us or
those who may also read it ?



>3. How can there be any inter-relationship if only the One
>(Beness) exists?
>
>DALLAS
>CONVERSATION, OBSERVATION, CORRESPONDENCE, ETC...SEEM TO BE
>ADEQUATE EVIDENCE OF INTER-RELATIONSHIP.  THOUGHT AND EMOTION
>TRANSFERENCE  ALSO.
>

What you are describing is all maya. Maya is usually defined as
illusion (I believe that even HPB defined it so). My point is
that your "facts" are all illusions  of our samsaric sojourn
through ignorant self-expression.

I am arguing that your three "facts" have only relative reality,
and thus
the idea that these are indeed "facts" is questionable.


I TOO AGREE TO THIS - HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT OBVIATE THE EVENT.
OR THE ATTEMPT TO GAIN SOME ENLIGHTENMENT FROM EACH OTHER, DOES
IT ?


Your original point was, I believe, that these were three "facts"
that everyone can agree on. I for one, can't agree that these are
facts at all but are rather appearances due to our ignorance and
miss-perception of reality. If you want a fact that I can agree
with, then how about Beness? I can agree that Beness is the
Ground or Source of all manifestation and that the One (Beness)
is Many (infinite numbers of divine Monads).

Jerry  I couldn't agree with you more.  However when confronting
BENESS we can say nothing from outside of it (relatively).

And this still leaves unresolved the whole question of:

Why are things the way they are ?

What is to be gained by all this work and thought and scrambling
?

So what is the purpose of our asking questions of each other in
this illusory == samsaric == environment, unless there is some
possible joint benefit, such as clearing away those mists that
envelop REALITY.  But, I do not think this can be done suddenly,
but, rather once "mist" at a time.

Dal


Jerry S.