Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tt00394)

Nov 21st 1998

Dear  J erry:

Some comments interjected below

Dal

> Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 1:23 PM
> Subject: Re: More on Karma


    [Dallas:]
    >The "personality"  -- our brain-mind -- resists the idea because
    >it looks for ways to weasel out of the consequences of its
    >choices and acts.

    Since I dont know what "the idea" is, I have no idea what you
    are talking about.


    [DALLAS ]
    I was "talking about" the Theosophical duality of "personality" or
embodied brain-mind, and "Individuality" or the immaterial but ever potent
and active MIND principle tha makes us human and gives the brain-mind, its
'mirror' the facility of thinking.

    The "personality" to me, includes not only the reasoning faculty, but
also it engages the emotional faculty (desires, passions, wants and needs)
as a separate faculty.

    I use HPB's definitons of the 7=fold man, and have tested it and found
it valuable and workable.  It also (to me) solves many of the puzzles of
modern psychology.

    If only they (those engaged in psychological science and investigation)
studied and employed it (Theosophical definitions), they would save a lot of
time.

    But the first stumbling block is the matter of individual IMMORALITY.
If that is not grasped.  To me it is very logical but I also recognize that
it is not part of the educational or religious instruction here in the West
(as opposed to the East, where in most countries, among the common people,
the concept of Soul-immorality is common).

    ----------------------------------------------------

    >The "individuality" -- the immortal, Real Man -- knows that every
    >impression made on the material of our being either distorts or
    > improves it.

    First of all, I don't like your "Real Man" because as far as I am
    concerned, the individuality is just as real and just as illusive
    as the personality or physical body. All are maya. All are
    real. All are illusion.


    [DALLAS ]
    Excuse me, but it is easy to take that view point, but it is causing a
paradox.  In the sense that you the illusion are able to see other
illusions -- and there would be (if true) no certainty of any kind.  But
there is one certainty tha you seem to advance -- THERE IS NOTHING BUT
UNCERTAINTY.  If there is contrast then the inquirer has to have a basis.
What is your basis ?  This is what I somehow do not get at.

    ======================================

    How do you know what the individuality "knows?" The reason
    I ask this is that when I raise my consciousness to that level,
    I have no concept of matter, or ego, or lifetimes, etc., or any
    other topic that bothers the brain-mind. It is only after I return
    consciousness to the mental-physical that I can deduce
    these kinds of things, and even then some interpretation
    comes into play.


    [DALLAS ]
    Let me try to understand.  What is it "in you" tha is able to "raise my
consciousness ?"  I would say taht is evidence for some permanent aspect of
being and consciousness that is separate from and therefore able to perceive
changes.  Is it "permanent ?  Is it Immortal ?  These are questions I have
asked myself .

    ==========================================

    Improvement and distortion are purely subjective terms.


    [DALLAS ]

    AGREED, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNUSABLE OR UNREAL, DOES IT ?  iN A
WAY EVERYTHING WE PERCEIVE WITH ANY OF OUR SENSES OR THE MIND IS
"subjective."  I say this as we take in those various impressions and then
transform them into images, vibrations, etc. which our inner "brain-mind"
makes a "picture" of and then we gain a vision of what is being prsented and
evolve a response.



    >We as physical, psychological and mental beings carry with
    >us all the time the effects of our choices.  We have
    >either improved or impaired our instruments.

    I agree.


    >As far as I can determine, modern psychology has only
    >investigated the personal consciousness as it manifests through
    >the brain mind. and being materialistic in its approach it fails to
    >grasp the cause for psychic memories and traits, as separate
    >from the physical or the "spiritual" or Egoic -- which are universal
    >in scope, and not solely focused on this life and its soon-to-be-ended
    >termination.

    You are avoiding or ignoring transpersonal psychology.



    [DALLAS ]
    Not really, as this is recognized by me as a fact, and also I believe I
am right in assuming that something in "me" is aware of the change of scene,
plane, etc... and either acts, or eceives impressions from that event -- and
then those are brought into focus when we "return" to this plane.  I would
very much hesitate to advance any experience tha I had as anything but proof
to myself of the events I had experienced.


    In any case, you are also ignoring the axiom as-above-so-below
    which suggests that how things work during any one life is based
    on universal principles that work over all lives. My experience
    tells me that the "spiritual" knows nothing at all of the material,
    that the Higher Self is not aware of its lower expessions nor
    cares much what happens to them, nor does it follow the "karma"
    of its lower expressions.


    [DALLAS ]
    Then what HPB advances in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE (PP 66 -
76 IN my edition) appears to contradict this assumption.  Also in SD II 167
is an explanation of the situation.

    =================================================

    However, I do follow G de P's suggestion that there is karma on
    all planes so that we have physical karma, emotional karma,
    mental karma, and causal karma. It is causal karma that
     works on the causal plane that is concerned with the
    succession of lives. Causal karma is, I think, largely collective.
    It is not karma or causation that carries over so much as
    the skandhas or propensities and tendencies. The idea
    that every thought and act in one life must be paid for in
    a future life is pernicious and insulting.


    [DALLAS ]
    AS I undrsand it, Karma acts everywhere, on all planes and all the time
for all being including you, me and everyone else.  To say tha Karma acts
only in future lives.  That is mechanistic and not true.  If you allow
boiling water to fall on your hand today the effect is immediate.


    >As far as I can see if one is focused on the here and now,
    > the causative side and purpose of life remain a mystery and
    > inexplicable.

    I feel strongly that the purpose of life and its "causative side"
    were, are, and will ever be a mystery. They can't be put into
    words, although we Theosophists do try to construct models
    of such things and then jump to the false conclusion that we
    understand (physicists have been so burned by this all-too human
    trait, that they seldom do it any more. I wish more Theosophists
    would follow suit). Those who think they know, probably don't.


    >To me the value of Theosophy has been to find that there are
    >a long-time group of researchers who have looked into those
    >events and have observed how and why they occur.

    Again, physicists do this too, and get burned all the time.
    Theosophists will also get burned, but most don't know it yet.
    By "burned" I mean that experience will one day demonstrate
    clearly that one's models, and worldviews, and belief systems
    are not adequate. This happened to me, and I can't help but
    think others will find this out too. If your Theosophical views
    are currently supported fully by your experiences then rest
    assured there will come a time when you will have the rug
    pulled out from beneath your feet and will have to change
    your worldview accordingly.

    Jerry S.