Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tt00016)

<bold><bigger><bigger>Dear Dallas:


I understand what you say. Having seen your msgs, I can assure you that I
have every confidence in you in that you have always presented info that
you know to be correct as far as you know.


As regards the Krotono conference, when issues such as what was said by a
person is in question, the quickest and easiest way to settle would be
for that person, if alive, to respond quickly to clarify. Even if there
was any doubt or ambiguity, it would be very easy to fix it. On the other
hand, if one either does not care to engage in a communication or is
incapable to use the modern technology, then the loser is the person
concerned, not the audience.


mkr


</bigger></bigger></bold>

> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> Sent:	Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998

Nov. 3rd 1998


Dallas writes:


Dear MKR:


To offer further clarification.  Please I only make statements

that are based on definite historical documents or first person

witness.  When I don't know I say so.  When I guess or have an

opinion - and I often have many - I also say so, so there is no

mistake.  Also when I find I am wrong I say so right away.


Dal.


Now: --



Concerning the matter of Mr. Judge, and the part that he played

in the T S and its development.


The statements I made are based on Histories and historical

documents.


If Mr. Paul Johnson has something else than opinions (his own or

those of others) to offer, could they be advanced for all to

consider ?  As I read his statements they appear to me inaccurate

and I subjoin comments.


-----------------------------------



Students who desire to investigate these documents will find them

detailed in two books


THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ;  1875 - 1925,  and its sequel


THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT :  1875 - 1950


The references that are quoted there have all been verified

several times.




1878 - 1896


After HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept

the T S in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when

no one was present - as is attested to by others.  Mr.

Neresheimer, is one of those.  Between 1879 and 1886 the work of

the T S apparently faced a recession of interest in the USA -

however it was Judge that kept the thread of continuity alive at

the HQ in New York.



1891 - 1892


Judge produced no "Mahatma letters" that turned Besant against

Olcott.  It was Besant who brought certain opinions of hers to

Judge late in 1891.  (See HISTORIES above. )


Resolutions were passed by the American and the British Sections

T S in 1892 accepting Olcott's resignation (which he wrote

unrequested, alleging health reasons).  Because of Judge's

urging, these Resolutions requested Olcott to rescind his

resignation.  Olcott went on record when he did this, saying that

he had independently received a direct communication from "his

Master" telling him to do so.  This is a matter of Historical

record.



Judge and Vice-Presidency / Presidency  (1891-2)


Judge advised many of his close companions that he was not

interested in leaving New York and America (where his work was).

He was suffering from the incurable Chagres disease, (Back-water

fever) which finally took his life in 1896.  He did not want to

go to Adyar and to assume the Presidency of the T S.


He had been appointed Vice-President T S by Pres. Olcott, and

this was later ratified by the Council in Adyar.  This was during

HPB's life-time.  She stated that this appointment was made at

the "Masters order."  {Documents as above ]



Judge's relations with HPB


It is advisable to consider ALL letters, please.  Then, frame

your own opinion.


1875 -1888


Judge was given a Certificate (14 Dec. 1888) in ES by HPB in 1888

stating he was a "successful chela of 13 years' standing" and was

her "Agent" in America.


More letters giving HPB's opinion of Judge are available in

print.

[ see LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME.  ULT 1931 Centenary Edition,

pp. 276 et seq. ]



Besant's "Co-outer Head E S" termination by Judge


Based on documents.  [ See History ]



1893 - 1894


Besant arrived in Colombo late in 1893, visited Adyar soon after

for the "annual meeting."


Attack on Judge began early in 1894.


"Trial" conducted in mid 1894 in London on flimsy "evidence."

Failed, and "charges" were dismissed.  [ see HISTORY ]

History narrates the sequence of letters and the response for all

to see.


Amity was declared in letters published in LUCIFER, PATH and

THEOSOPHIST.


Attack on Judge was resumed late in 1894.  [ see History ]



Krotona conference:  Statements are made based on my memory (and

notes) of events and words heard.



Dallas

> Sent:	Monday, November 02, 1998 9:00 PM
> Subject: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998

1. Corrections re Judge
2. Re: Corrections re Judge
7. Re: Corrections re Judge

> Subject: Corrections re Judge
> From: "K Paul Johnson" <pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu>
> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST)

I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post
about WQJ.  First is his statement that the original issue was
the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others
tried to oust him.  No, the *original* issue was the position of
Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long
after HPB's death.  They actually succeeded in getting him to
resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a
female Theosophist.  But then Olcott changed his mind and refused
to depart, alleging Masters' orders.  Only after Besant changed
sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met
many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma
letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the
fan for Judge.

Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges
of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year.  This
obscures the role of the ES in the dispute.  Judge and Besant
were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from
her position-- and she reciprocated.  It was the split in the ES
that led to the split in the TS.  Yes, this is unfortunate
history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and
villains.

It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India,
Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great
growth.  Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so
and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he
start to devote himself to building it up.  As for his having no
personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this
claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma
letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the
latter's resignation.  If the letters were genuine, no personal
ambition was involved.  Otherwise... this would clear the way for
his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious.


Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were
close and always cordial.  Recent publications of letters in
Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown
otherwise.


BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall
John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls.  His theme
was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and
various branches dialects.  Perhaps he was interpreted as having
*meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he
presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying
this and would like a quote.

Cheers,

Paul

> Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge
> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600
> From: "M K Ramadoss" <ramadoss@eden.com>

Dear Paul:


Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the

in depth

knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and

feedback from

you is eye opening.


Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in

relation

to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard

for him is

not going to change no matter what further info comes out because

he did

spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy.


As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona

conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be

active in

Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest

instantly.

But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see

any changes

in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA.


It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not

care to

communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be

alive today

and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant

rebuttal/correction to set facts right.


mkr