Theos-Talk Archives (October 1998 Message tt00021)

Oct 4th 1998

Dear Mark:

More Notes interjected below		Dal

> From: Mark Kusek
> Sent:	Sunday, October 04, 1998 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: "Spiritual culture" answering some inquiries

> Dallas wrote:

> Understood - when embodied and in the waking state the personal

> consciousness is selfish and isolated  -- the "aggregates" or

> "samskaras /skandhas" as I understand it are those "Monads"
upon
> which we have imposed either our thought, feeling or will, and
> therefore become for a longer or shorter time (under Karma)
> "attached" to us as a center.

That's the teaching. These "Monads" are experiencing life as the
elemental essences of the lower planes and so can become the
component
parts of our vehicles. It's all still maya though.


DALLAS

Agreed all is temporary ( maya ) except the ONE ABSOLUTE.

However we live exist, feel and think in this "illusion/Maya" for
some purpose of we would not be here.

One could posit that the reason for this situation and that we
have the power to envisage, see, understand it, is an
encouragement to try to learn more about the causes of things and
of ourselves.

I confront myself with these questions and observations:


If I am conscious here, then my consciousness is independent of
this environment.

If I remember "dreams" then my "consciousness" passes into and
through other states.   And, it records experience there, and
either wholly or partially reports this to me when I resume
physical waking life.  [ Are such reports accurate or distorted
? ]

If I cannot voluntarily pass into such other states, then what
have I to learn so as to do that consciously and not
involuntarily ?

What are the powers of the mind and the will ?  Are they solely
developed by mind or brain ?  [ Still, Who am "I" who can choose
what I will examine or investigate ? ]

Is the brain actor, originator, or a "tool?" --  Scientific
investigation shows that the brain acts, moves, throws off
electro-magnetic impulses when either it receives or originates
ideas/thoughts, feelings.

I also conclude that there may be many states and planes of
consciousness of which "dreams" are only one example.  "Visions"
whether dreams or experiences from "deep sleep" seem to occur and
are not controlled at will by me from the point of my "waking
consciousness."

If I alone am stable and find myself surrounded by variables, do
I appear to be a variable to them, if they are conscious in their
way as I am in mine ?  --  the fact that there is communication
seems to indicate that there is a bridge ( of consciousness ? )
which can be shared, even if momentarily, and even if the way in
which I interpret another's  words are framed by my ideas
Into concepts that I can grasp.

In other words if I am the sole occupant of "my universe", then I
must by experience, grant to others their "universes" and also
grant a basis of common  "communication."

The facts of our physical existence, in the phenomena and tools
of which we all share seems to indicate that even "maya" has some
stability, and is purposive.

I therefore cannot dismiss it without further understanding of
myself and these questions.



> As I understand it the Buddhistic and also the Theosophical
> approach to this situation is to try to harmonize all karmic
> links so as to become an impersonal force for good alone - in
> other words "to become karma-less."

To "harmonize karma" I would agree with, but to become a "force
for good
alone" will still leave you in a dualistic state. Impersonality
is more
like becoming the sun or the rain. Expressing ITSELF without
distinction
between good or evil. Just BEING.


DALLAS

I donor understand how such a state could be called "dualistic."
What are the components ?  As I see it, the polar opposites, say,
Spirit and Matter, are always united by perception, intelligence
and consciousness (as 3 aspects of the same thing - the MIND
which serves as a constant "link" )    Am I wrong in this ?

The "Abyss" is spoken of by mystics and as I see it there are at
least two:

1. Between the ABSOLUTE and "manifestation."

	2.	Between the "Higher Mind" and the "embodied mind" ( or Lower
			Manas ).

The two "manases" are linked through the bridge of the
"antaskarana" or the thread of consciousness that links not only
two days together when separated by "sleep," but also adjacent
"lives" when separated by "death."

I may be wrong in this conclusion.  What do you think ?

==============================================


> I would also observe that "Consciousness" per se is in itself
> separate from any state that "we" may be in, and consequently
is
> a unitary "thread of being" on which or in which, all
experience
> is recorded and seen.

Yes and THOU ART THAT.

DALLAS  see THE CREST JEWEL OF WISDOM  by Shankaracharya, for
more on this, as I remember.

==================================================
<snip>

> I understand what you say and mean - and I would agree that in
> some cases it can become another state of selfishness with the
> added confusion of thinking that one is important, and with
> enthusiasm one starts off doing things without truly
apprehending
> the ultimate consequences - perhaps one might characterize this
> with the "dangers of a little knowledge."
>
> On the other hand it is better to try to do some good, however
> limited one's perspective than to become inert.

Agreed.

<snip>

> Their only value is to show that those concepts were known and
> current in antiquity - an antiquity of study of which
Theosophy,
> Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism , etc., etc. are all
> parts.
>
> Since Theosophy was "recorded" for many peoples with various
> historical antecedents, this may mean more to them than to us
> with our limited Euro-American education.  We may have to meet
> and discuss matters with others who have their own antique
> backgrounds - this can give us the facility of dealing with
them
> with greater ease if we know those ideas and words.

I wasn't looking for a defense of the merits of scholarship.
You'll get
no argument from me in that regard. I was just asking you what
all this
means to your own personal experience. Sometimes I'm not sure if
you're
just quoting passages for their research value or if you've had
direct
experiences of these things.


DALLAS

Thanks, now I understand you.  Yes I have experienced many things
(in retrospect) - and can anticipate probables actively with my
mind when I take the factors that Theosophy offers concerning
psychology into account.

But I would observe, that even in the case of "lucid dreaming"
one is aware at that time that one is only partially awake and or
partially dreaming, and control is only partial.  The desire to
terminate a dream can be exercised, bringing "wakefulness."

But all such events are usually matters of memory and mental
review.  I have read that "chelas" under direct tuition are
gradually taught how to master these changes of state
voluntarily.

And that's about all I know.		Dal

================================

Regards,
Mark