Theos-Talk Archives (August 1998 Message tt00437)

Aug 26th 1998

Dear Murray:

May I interject below some more comments ?

Dallas

> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 2:44 AM
> From: "Murray Stentiford" <mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: Let the true initiates speak

>Responding to Dallas
>
>>Should we not first inquire how a "spiritual experience" can be accurately
>>defined ?
>
>An excellent idea. Probably the first question to come up in such an
>inquiry would be What does "spiritual" mean? One word, with many shades and
>layers of meaning that must be crammed into it - and having to be unpacked
>at the receiving end.  It makes me think of the word "sky". Try changing "I
had a spiritual
>experience" into "I had a sky experience". We happen to know that the sky
>has a troposphere, a stratosphere, an ionosphere, a van Allen belt, and
>more. Then, we could have been just looking at the sky, floating in the sky
>under a balloon, flying through it at speed, hovering far above it in a
>satellite ... We have probably have more knowledge about the sky than the
>spiritual realms. Well, I think I've made the point - several of them.
=======================================

DALLAS:I would say that is an excellent symbol to use.

========================================
>One of the points, of course, is that with our present state of knowledge,
>small as it is, there are still far too many different things that the word
>"spiritual" can be legitimately used for, so we need to qualify it with
>adjectives - such as there are.  I think that accurate definition is very
difficult at present, given that spiritual experience can be only *very*
partially described. That, in fact
>is probably one of its main defining features! There are some
>characteristics we can probably agree on, though, to define it in a very
>modest way. Let's put forward transcendence, expansiveness, sense of light,
>joy, all-embracing love, all-knowingness, sense of inner power,
>consciousness outside the normal repertoire of states, consciousness
>outside the body in another space. These, in varying mixtures and various
>degrees, would seem to be pretty common elements in what are often called
>spiritual experiences.


=========================================

Dallas:    I agree tha definitons are difficult, but I have been thinking
that we could narrow down someof the paramenters and arrive at some way in
which this could be adjusted to knows as well as some other more general
factors that could be considered.  Let me try this and see what you think:

All those descripitons of "spiritual" I would endorse, but, do you notice
how we tend to describe "spiritual" in terms of 'feeling and emotion ?'  Is
there anything more definite ?

Next we describe it as a 'condition,' and often ascribe to spirituality a
different kind of 'state of consciousness ?'  But have we a list or roster
of "states of consciousness," and some acceptable and generally agreed on
idea of what they are.

For instance:

1.  Awake;  2.  Sleep (unconscious);  3.  Dreaming (including invountary and
'guided -- lucent' dreams);  4.  Induced unconsciousness, as under
anesthesia;
5.    trance;  6.  'Meditation' -- when the mind is so focused on a subject
that it is unconscious and unaware of events around;  7.  Chanelling, or
'mediumship,' when one is a voluntary transmition point for some extraneous
influence  [  Such 'influences' to be devined. ];    8.   Controlled,
partially aware, or fully aware transmission as by an "Adept;"
9.  Full control of one's Consciousness, so that any of these states can be
entered or observed in another -- with full awareness and understanding --
Adeptship, or Mahatmaship;  10.  The power to see any aspect of the Akasa,
so that the past, present and future of any being, civilization, or World
can be made clear --- accessibility to the "memory" of the Universe and all
its contents.

There are probably dozens of states and sub-states that I have not
described, as I tried to visualize those which Theosophical literature gives
illustrations of.

To continue --

It is almost as though we said that in our present condition either
"spirtuality" was rare, or impossible.

However since we do conceive of it, and ascribe noble and altruistic
qualities (impersonality and universality) to it, we do have, even in our
present condition of waking consciousness some idea of what it might
represent.

Here are some of my thoughts ?

1.    The Universe is One whole.  It runs under Law -- from the largest to
the smallest event Law rules.  It may be called Karma.  But to describe
Karma, we can say that nothing is excluded from its operation.  It is just
and impartial as it returns to the casue the effects of that cause and all
the moral and mental impressions that are invisibly made as well as the
visible and physical acts.

2.    This implies that the Universe and all its contents (the many beings,
visible and invisible, from the sub-atoms to the extra-Galaxies, etc...) are
subject to Karma.  We do not know all the details of karmic operation,
(Theosophical literature sketches many of them) but even Science depends on
repetition and similarity to verify all experimental results independently
of original findings/observations.  Testimony and independent repetition of
observations and experiments tends to prove accepted facts.  It is from such
facts (if the preentations are complete) that hypothesis and theory evolves.

3.    Therfore every being in the Universe is sensitive to the impressions
of thoughts, feelings, and actions done/initiated by other beings, be they
men, super-men or infra-man
(whatever those terms may include) .  I think that this idea of
interrelationship and close cooperation is often excluded from our
considerations.  But it is dangerous not to, as it leaves great gaps in our
knowedge.

4.    If all beings are interrelated, then any disturbance of their
condition is either beneficial or detrimental to their being.  In human
terms we often speak of "motive."  But this is difficult to define, as it is
usually concealed and private to the one who generats it.  However it has
one of the greatest powers to modify the living of ourselves and others in
which we have an interest.

5.    I would say that among mankind the "motive" is highly important.  here
we enter on the little known realm of ethics:  I would call that fairness
toothers.  The "Golden Rule in careful attentive application all the time.
Prophet and sages continuously speak of this.
This is the mysterious area of "virtues," and "vices."  The area of motive.
The area of ethics and of morals (nd I don't mean communal or tribal
customs).

6.    What dimension does Theosophy add:  It speaks of the immortality of
the EGO/Soul and the Spirit (a ray of the One SPIRIT) that is at the core of
not only each member of humanity, but at the core of every atom, molecule,
cell -- in a range that disappears into our vague concept of the Infinte
Universe -- the WHOLE, whether manifest or non-manifest.
[ Theosophy describes the human MONAD as a stage in Monadic evolution where
it acquires the faculty of the mind, with all the mental capabilities and
powers. In Theosophy the nature of the Monad is described as triune:
SPIRIT-WISDOM-MIND]

7.    To this concept, Theosophy speaks of the reincarnation process that
marks the progress of every individual Monad (spirit/soul/mind).  It speaks
of the progress of the MONAD (first as atma/buddhi or Spirit/wisdom, and
then, having become lit up with the fire of Mind:  atma-buddhi-manas) from
the "life-atom" to the orgnaization of the Galactic Universe in its
entirety.

8.    It speaks of the "probationary" condtion of mankind -- that each of us
is in a universal educational program.  Thisprogram is one where we are
confronted with the information of the orgnaizations of the Universe in all
its aspects, visible and invisible.

9.    Learning and progress in this "school" is always a matter of
individual choice for us, the pupils.

==================================

>
>We could go on to try to match a theosophical, multi-planed world view with
>types of experience, plane by plane, perhaps - a very difficult thing to
>do, especially if we're just working in the realm of intellectual models.
>And how to convey another person's experience, to do such a cataloging job?
>One would need an adept's sheaf of siddhis, to sense another's states to
>the depths of their being. Oh, well. :-) It stretches the mind, to think
>about these things, at least!
>
>>Are there degrees of "spiritual experience ?"  Has anyone made a catalog
of
>>these to which we might refer ?
>
>There is a Religious Experience Research Unit (RERU), as it used to be
>called, described in the front of the Quest book "The Common Experience -
>signposts on the path to enlightenment" by Cohen and Phipps. 'For a full
>account of the research of RERU, (now called the Alister Hardy Research
>Centre), see Maxwell and Tschudin's "Seeing the Invisible: Modern Religious
>and Transcendent Experience (Viking, 1990).' (Quoting from Phipps and
>Cohen.) I haven't seen the second book, but Phipps and Cohen is a
>delightful collection of first-hand accounts of spiritual or mystical
>experience, many taken from the extensive collection at the Research
>Centre, and others from historical records of various mystics etc.
>
>>I think if we are going to resolve any of these matters we ought to at
least
>>have a structure on which we may place such information as may be
>>contributed as answers.


>Yes, theosophical thought gives us an open framework of such structural
>elements. All we have to do is be prepared to expand the structure when
>necessary - like when we have something of such an experience ourselves. To
>be prepared for our current understanding of the framework to shatter as we
>enter a new paradigm of understanding. This is something of a repeating
>cycle, as HPB has indicated in Robert Bowen's notes on How to study
>theosophy (pages 12 to 13 in the TPH version).
>
>I'd love to discuss, or see others discuss, your other questions, but this
>is enough from me for now. They are all thought-provoking, and critically
>needing to be considered.
>
>Best Wishes
>
>Murray
>
AND THESE ARE RETURNED TO YOU WITH INTEREST

DALLAS
>
>
>