Theos-Talk Archives (August 1998 Message tt00089)

K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> Daniel, I'm going one step down the slippery slope of responding
> to your misreadings of me AND NO FURTHER.  Well, maybe two.  You
> call it a "significant admission" that I call Ooton Liatto and
> friend "two real adepts."  But surely you realize that what I mean by "real
> adepts" does not include any of the assumptions you seem to bring
> to it.  I just meant real people, who were occultists of some
> sort and knew HPB.  Didn't endorse the paranormal phenomenon as
> you know.  Also, you say I'm skeptical about the possibility of
> organizations of adepts being connected to HPB.  Clearly a
> misreading; I've gone to great lengths to ferret out just such
> associations in her life, such as Masonic, Rosicrucian, Sikh,
> Sufi, etc. connections.  I just don't accept that all these
> diverse separate "brotherhoods" were One Big Brotherhood
> except in a metahistorical and metaphysical sense.  Sure there
> were some connections.  But no Great Big Conspiracy running the
> world.  But hey, let's not talk about this any more.  If you want
> to dissect my Cayce book, more power to you.  Statute of
> limitations is up on my theories about HPB's Masters which were first
> published in 1990.  Frankly, I've lost interest in discussing it.


Daniel Caldwell replies:

Yes, we certainly don't want to go to far down that slippery slope!!!

My comments were primarily directed toward Jerry S. and HIS comments on
HPB's Masters, etc.

Concerning your comments on Ooton Liatto and his adept associate, you
wrote:

> But surely you realize that what I mean by "real
> adepts" does not include any of the assumptions you seem to bring
> to it.  I just meant real people, who were occultists of some
> sort and knew HPB.

Paul, I don't exactly know what assumptions you think I bring to this.
My point was simply if Jerry (or even you) accept that Olcott meet "real
adepts" (however defined!!) and they were "real people, who were
occultists of some sort and knew HPB", then might not they be members of
some adept association? And maybe Koot Hoomi, Morya and others were also
members of that same adept association.  In your book, you admit that
you could not identify who these adepts really were, i.e, you could not
find biographical information to identify Ooton Liatto and the other
unnamed adept.  Therefore, could you then or even now identify the
"Brotherhood" to which they belonged?  Probably not.  My point is simply
maybe Ooton Liatto (Hilarion) and the other unnamed adept associate
belonged to the same organization as Koot Hoomi, Morya, etc. And my
question to Jerry S was: Is that really so unbelievable or far-fetched?

Than (as you know) several years later, Olcott in his private diary
notes that Hilarion (Ooton Liatto?) passed through Bombay, India.  And
in Mahatma Letter No. 8, (3rd edition), Koot Hoomi refers to Hilarion in
these words:

HPB "lent an ear to ONE OF OURS, who is passing through Bombay from
Cyprus, on his way to Tibet. . . ."  Caps added.

Here Koot Hoomi identifies Hilarion as one of HIS adept associates.

Now you will probably put your own definition and spin on this.  Fine.

My point to Jerry and other interested readers was simply if one accepts
Ooton Liatto visiting Olcott and HPB in New York and later visiting them
again in Bombay, then possibly this *historically unidentified* person
was one of the many Brothers of HPB belonging to the occult brotherhood
HPB writes about.

Again when you write:

>I've gone to great lengths to ferret out just such
> associations in her life, such as Masonic, Rosicrucian, Sikh,
> Sufi, etc. connections.  I just don't accept that all these
> diverse separate "brotherhoods" were One Big Brotherhood
> except in a metahistorical and metaphysical sense.  Sure there
> were some connections.  But no Great Big Conspiracy running the
> world.

Well, maybe the "Adept Association" HPB writes about is NOT any of these
specific Masonic, Rosicrucian, Sikh, Sufi, etc." brotherhoods.  Maybe
HPB's "Adept Fraternity" was more international in scope than the ones
you list, but not necessarily whatever you mean by the "One Big
Brotherhood."  Again, I don't exactly know what you mean by the "Great
Big Conspiracy running the world."  Is this something from Blavatsky's
writings or from later Theosophical writings?

Again my point in referring to Ootton Liatto and his unnamed associate
was simply this:  Can Jerry S. (or you or whoever) identify the
"Brotherhood" or association to which possibly these two adepts
belonged?  Probably not.  If one can accept the existence of Masonic,
Rosicrucian, Sikh, Sufi, etc. "societies" (call them whatever) why is it
so hard to conceive that there might not be another association composed
of the individuals of many races?  **An association such as described by
HPB?** Ooton Liatto possibly belonged to that association when he was in
New York and still belonged to that association when he was in Bombay
talking to Olcott and HPB.  And Koot Hoomi wrote that he was "one of
theirs" and was on his way to Tibet.

Now I realize that you (and possibly Jerry S. as well as others) cannot
for whatever reasons accept at face value all the evidence pointing
toward the existence of some such Adept association as described by HPB
and deduced from the testimonies of those who met HPB's Masters.

David Pratt, Nicholas Weeks and I have given our own critiques showing
why we think your speculations on this subject fall far short of truly
explaining the vast array of testimony to be found concerning HPB's
Adept associates and their association/fraternity/brotherhood.

I look forward to hearing Jerry S.'s views since I was primarily
responding to his comments.

No farther down the slippery slope!

Daniel