Theos-Talk Archives (July 1998 Message tt00066)

July 3rd

Dear Gerry:

>
>Well, it was a lot more than a "mood" for me. I felt that I
>had to KNOW or die trying. It was, in fact, a life and death
>struggle within myself. Waiting was out of the question.
>=======================

DAL:  Agreed.  I would say that it hits us in the way in which we
are the most vulnerable.  And it may strike more than once, and
in different ways.

I think it is a part of the effort that the embodied Mind (Manas)
has to make to master and control the passional, desire nature
(Kama)  I was thinking of this and then recalled that In Mr.
Judge's LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME he described to Jasper how he
went through something similar.  [Do you have the book ?  It is
on pp. 68 top, 90 middle, and 118 top.]

The darkness and the desolation come to those who are trying to
raise their natures out of the humdrum ordinary level we are all
in. But being temporary we can conquer by being patient.  Usually
the darkest hour is just before dawn, metaphorically, but having
passed, we, looking back, are aware that the true WE is not
subject to that event, but only its witness.  Another part of us
has changed and improved by passing through that "fire," or
"Abyss," or whatever we wish to call it.

-----------------------------------------
>
>> >When all is said and done, every change we notice in our
psyche
>> >is a "test" of our personalities and our motives.
>> >
>Every event in our lives can probably be considered a
>test or trial of some sort. But there are small tests
>and there are big (life-death) tests.    ABSOLUTELY TRUE

>
>> >Our personality is the pupil of the inner Higher Self.  It
>> >watches, warns, advises but cannot direct or guide, only
advise
>> !
>
>The problem with the Dark Night of the Soul is not with the
>ego but with the Higher Self which seems intent on breaking
>through into consciousness even at the risk of death or
insanity.

========================================
Dal:
    I would say that the "personality,"  the "embodied Mind" or
Lower Manas feels by comparison with the ideals of the HIGHER
SELF tha  this may be so.  But, by definition, the HIGHER SELF is
not able to impose anything on the Lower Self except an offer of
assitance and hope (as such guidance as the Lower Mind/self can
use).  One of those points of help is the idea that we are all
IMMORTALS.  Hence death is not to be feared.  Insanity is of
various kinds.  The worst arises from refusal to try to get out
of a "mood" or a confused emotinal/mental state.  Holding on to
the idea that one is an immortal is the greatest help that I can
think of.  It helped me, as I look back, more than once.

-------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Yet, nonduality or Be-ness is still under the sway of KARMA
>> which
>> >is an integral part (aspect) of it -- or else there would be
on
>> >CAUSELESS CAUSE or/and CAUSE at all for "Manifestation."
Since
>> >we are here as witnesses to manifestation all around us, the
>> idea
>> >of a "KARMALESS" KARMA seems to obtrude itself on our
>> >consciousness as a needed and logical fact.
>> >
>
>Here I absolutely postively disagree (and so would all
>Mahayana Buddhists). Karma is within maya, and does not
>exist in nonduality, which is timeless eternity (karma
>is causation through time and without time cause and
>effect make no sense). The split or separation from
>nondual divinity to dualistc spirituality is not
>logical; logic and reason apply only to the lower
>four cosmic planes. Why do we humans try to foist
>logic and reason on the universe? Modern psychology
>has already determined that the unconscious (i.e.,
>the unconscious psyche as define by Jung) is not
>logical but is timeless and spaceless.
=========================================
Dal:

I only think we phrase it differently.  I said that KARMA is an
aspect of that UNITY  which is 'Be-ness" from the point of view
of the S D  ( vol. 1, pp 14-18 ).

Consider with me that Manvantara, manifestation, of however long
a duration is still limited.  It as an event, including the
masses of intelligent and consciousn beings of all grades.  But
for that "event" to occur there has to be a cause.  Backward as
we may go in mind, we hit barriers.  The "First Casue" as an
emanation of the CAUSELESS CAUSE.  And where may that be ?  "In
the bosom of the ABSLOUTENESS" -- someting we cannot define
except to say:  "It is a logical necessity."  anything "limited"
emanates fromm THAT which is non-limited.

Thesis:  (see SD I 27  # 8) "pulsation" "Life pulsated
unconscious in universal space"    If so, then, pulsation is an
aspect of cycles and hence of KARMA.

There is an endless and beginningless cycle of manifestation, and
we (as consciousness -- as one of the "rays" of the ONE) are
able, because of that connection, to consider this -- without
being able to "define" it.

I also get this from THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, which is "Maha
Yana" (the "Great Vehicle") and identical with the ideas of the
Raja-Yoga school -- but their employment, as ideas, is not
limited by the "school" to which we may relate them --as the
sources of our knowledge and thinking in this present life.
---------------------------------------------------------

>> >From one point of view we may say (IMHO) BENESS - BEING -
>> >BECOMING (The Development of the
>> >MIND--INTELLIGENCE--CONSCIOUSNESS) are always simultaneous.
>
>Well, this is likely to be our point of contention then.
>I hold that consiousness is primary and intelligence
>secondary while mind is tertiary. They are not, IMHO,
>simultaneous or anywhere near equal things.

========================================
Dal:        Agreed.  The condition of a human mind is that it is
aware of itself.  Inteligence and consciousness in Nature may be
that of individual "monads" or of a group which is drawn together
to form a "vehicle" for a greater unit.  Example our own physical
bodies.  What is the central power that draws so many diverse
elements together and then supervises and organizes them, quite
separately from our own use of the body as a "vehicle" for our
personal living ?
--------------------------------------------------------
>> >In an infinite and immortal, timeless UNIVERSE, there is also
the
>> >NON-UNIVERSE, and in the "time" (to us), is included
NON-TIME.
>>
>I can't follow the reasoning or logic to this statement. Sorry.
>IMHO there are 7 planes within our solar universe, all of which
>are mayavic and have a sense of space and time. Outside of our
>7-plane universe, or above it if you will, is timeless and
>spaceless divinity about which little can be said. What is a
>non-universe?
====================================
Dal:
A "catch-all" idea only -- of that which precedes (undefined) any
and all "manifestations."  S D  I 200, shows 7 planes, of which
the lower 4 are divided into 7.  And I would presume to say that
"above" the 7n so shown are 3 more.  But that is useless to
speculate on , only to say that we are thones who make ourselves
mentally comfortable within all limits.  Yet, there is also in
us, that which in still unfettered and unlimited by any such
constructs. (see also SD II 593, 596, 605...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> >In fact contradicting St. Augustine there can never be a pure
>> >"duality" as there is, always separate from those polar
>> >contrasts, the WITNESS,  or that  which  OBSERVES.   And that
is
>> >the grand Mind faculty [ perhaps Universal Mind or MAHAT and
its
>> >many components ] and all the various ranges of consciousness
as
>> >states and the observers of those states, and their
>> >administrators.  Duality always implies TRINITY.  HPB devotes
>> >quite a few pages in SD, Vol. I to explaining this and
>> >illustrating it.
>> >
>
>If I see what you saying, then I agree that there is always
>a third or Witness. Without an observer, then there is
>nothing at all. But what is a "real" duality? Certainly
>we human are witness to many dualities. Only a handful have
>witnessed non-duality and these are the mystics and poets
>of the world.
>======================================
Dal:  How true.

Best wishes as always,    Dal.  July 3rd 1998
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