Theos-Talk Archives (July 1998 Message tt00038)

> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 4:43 AM
> Subject: Re: = Oath of the Abyss = What does it mean ? Newcessity ?


>July 2 1998
>
>Dear Gerry:        Many thanks for comments.
>
>Some few more notes appended below        Dal
>
>From: "Jerry Schueler" <gschueler@netgsi.com>
>Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 9:38 PM
>Subject: Re: = Oath of the Abyss = What does it mean
>? Newcessity ?
>
>
>>> >Could be more of a Dark Night of the Soul than an abyss.
>>> >These are two different things.
>>> ==========================================
>>>
>>> Dal:     Only a "dark night" (emotional description) to the
>lower
>>> mind.  But it has the capacity, with the help of the Higher
>Mind,
>>> (IMHO) to universalize and to dispel this dire anticipation,
>>> realizing that it, too, is an immortal and by learning it can
>>> dispell fear and the ignorance that causes it.
>>> =================================================
>>>
>>Dallas, have you gone through the Dark Night of the Soul yet?
>>I did. It wasn't pretty. And I would never say "only" a dark
>>night. The whole point of the Dark Night is that the ego is
>>cut off from the Ego or higher self and is filled with doubt.
>>I was obsessed with reading and study until the dawn finally
>>rose for me.
>-------------------------------------------
>
>Dallas:
>IMO we each of us go through at some time this experience of the
>"Dark Night" when all appears dark, and despair can overwhelm.
>
>But if we can remember that it is only a "mood" then we can wait
>it out.  It does not hurt any the less, but if we are not
>impatient, then we may learn from it and also verify that we
have
>the strength to not give it control.  It is a test of partience.
>
>Perhaps also  an "initiation" of some kind for our
personalities.
>When all is said and done, every change we notice in our psyche
>is a "test" of our personalities and our motives.
>
>Our personality is the pupil of the inner Higher Self.  It
>watches, warns, advises but cannot direct or guide, only advise
!
>
>>============================================
>>
>>> Dallas:
>>> Yes, I too see order and seeming Chaos.  But I also mentally
>>> visualize a greater environment which runs in grand cycles of
>>> time, as also of place and being.  Are those to be called
>CHAOS,
>>> or is there not hinted in the  S D a regularity called the
>"great
>>> Breath" or the "pulsations" that vibrate throughout eternity
?
>>>  SD I 27  # 8 )
>>> >
>>Time and space form cosmos or order. This orderly cosmos rests
>>on a sea of Chaos. Light shines only in a background of
>>darkness. Existence only makes sense in terms of nonexistence.
>>HPB's vision of planetary chains involving and evolving
>>through manvantaras is her Theosophical description of cosmos,
>>but Darkness & Chaos are behind it all and just as valid.
>>
>>========================================
>
>
>Dallas:
>
>AGREED  -- to quote SD I p. 14, on the 1st Fundamental
>    In the wrods of Mandukya it is not this, not this, not this.
>It is the "eternal background, and nothing manifested can
>describe it, but intellectualy it is essential.  It is a logical
>need.
>
>=====================================================
>
>>> DAl:  I agree with Mr. Long.  We frame our own pictures of
>these
>>> things and sometiems our ability is not as extensive as is
>needed
>>> in terms of ideals, ultimates and universals -- so we find we
>>> have to change and enlarge them ultimately as more factors
are
>>> grasped.  I fing this happening with me all the time.  But
>they
>>> are not destructive (I find)  of the original premises,
merely
>>> details and add-ons to the picture.  Then I find that one has
>to
>>> be so careful in what one says and the illustrations one
uses,
>as
>>> they can be so easily misunderstood.  So much time is then
>spent
>>> in adjusting ideas between each other.
>>>
>>
>>OK. We seem to agree that our worldview must also change
>>to conform to our experiences.
>>
>>
>>> Dal:  I would say that the animal kingdom in all its
diversity
>is
>>> illustrative of the many different kinds of instincts that
are
>>> under development there, which lead ultimately in those
>immortal
>>> "Monads" that are animating the collective intellligence that
>we
>>> call "an animal," ( Potential Men)  to their ultimate
>>> individualization in another Manvantara yet to come.  HPB
>seems
>>> to me to describe this process in some detail beginning Vol.
>1,
>>> p, 153 to p. 299.  She then amplifies the details in Vol. 2.
>She
>>> says that the Secret Doctrine teaches "history"  SD I 267
top.
>A
>>> rather significant statement.
>>
>>OK. The only difference between a mineral, a plane, an
>>animal and a human being is time.
>>
>======================================
>DAL:
>            AND EXPERIENCE -- ALWAYS SOME PROGRESS
>============================>
>
>
>>> Dal:
>>> It is not "chaos" that I would throw away at all, but behind
>>> either order or chaos must stand a larger background that
>>> encompasses them and of which we have only the S D to
describe
>>> their probable arrangements -- which are under the primary
Law
>of
>>> Karma, as I uinderstand it  (not human karma) but a UNIVERSAL
>>> KARMA.
>>>
>>
>>Behind duality is nonduality. Karma is the law of causality
>>in our dualistic world. Nonduality doesn't need karma.
>>The SD says little to nothing about nonduality except to
>>call it the name Beness, which is as good as any.
>>
>==========================================
>
>Dal:
>
>Yet, nonduality or Be-ness is still under the sway of KARMA
which
>is an integral part (aspect) of it -- or else there would be on
>CAUSELESS CAUSE or/and CAUSE at all for "Manifestation."  Since
>we are here as witnesses to manifestation all around us, the
idea
>of a "KARMALESS" KARMA seems to obtrude itself on our
>consciousness as a needed and logical fact.
>
>From one point of view we may say (IMHO) BENESS - BEING -
>BECOMING (The Development of the
>MIND--INTELLIGENCE--CONSCIOUSNESS) are always simultaneous.  In
>an infinite and immortal, timeless UNIVERSE, there is also the
>NON-UNIVERSE, and in the "time" (to us), is included NON-TIME.
>
>In fact contradicting St. Augustine there can never be a pure
>"duality" as there is, always separate from those polar
>contrasts, the WITNESS,  or that  which  OBSERVES.   And that is
>the grand Mind faculty [ perhaps Universal Mind or MAHAT and its
>many components ] and all the various ranges of consciousness as
>states and the observers of those states, and their
>administrators.  Duality always implies TRINITY.  HPB devotes
>quite a few pages in SD, Vol. I to explaining this and
>illustrating it.
>
>======================================
>>
>>> As "pairs of opposites" they cannot be "thrown away."  they
>need
>>> each other, but the fact that we can visualize them both,
>>> indicates that there is something in "us" which transcends
>those
>>> limits.  Or am I wrong ?
>>
>>You are exactly right. It all must be transcended.
>>
>>> Dal.  (SD I 90, 129-135)
>>> The "Ring Pass-Not" in the 'Book of the Dead' of Egypt, as I
>>> understand it, refers to the abyss between our life and the
>>> after-death states.  It also refers to the stages of
>Initiation
>>> whereby one passes up the ladder of becoming wise, and the,
>>> wiser.  Each life, for those who are determined, in
retrospect
>>> shows evidence of this process.
>>
>>There are many such ring-pass-nots. I think that we were
>>refering to the Great Outer Abyss (or Veil of the Abyss)
>>which is the ring-pass-not for the human mind (at a
>>point called Daath).
>
>=======================================
>Dal:
>
>I would say that that is true for the "personality."  It is
>seemingly dispersed as to the use of a physical form at death.
>But the "personality" is an assembly of "life-atoms: or
Skandhas,
>which are in themselves immortals (Monads under tuition).  But
as
>a focus of consciousness it is indestructible.  After passing
>through the after-death states it "returns" to manifestation,
and
>drawing the many scattered SKANDHAS ("life-atoms") of its
>previous perosonality/(ies) together, it is assisted by a new
>mother and father in creating a new "personality" in which it
>will live and continue in its learning program. The combination
>of two Egos (the parents) assisting a third Ego (the child),
with
>whom the Karmic connection has to be very strong, is a curious
>event, and comparatively little is said of that.  I think that
is
>an area which we have to examine and discover for ourselves.
>>
>========================================
>>
>>> The fact that this stage is described indicates to me that
>there
>>> are those who have passed through it consciousnly and are
able
>to
>>> describe its purpose, as well as its being.  What man has
>done,
>>> Man can do !
>>
>>Agreed. Consciousness is what passess through the Abyss, not
>>thinking.
>>
>>Jerry S.
>
>================================>
>
>
>AND MORE NOTES FROM   Dal.  Best wishes.  July 2 1998
>
>--------------------------------------------
>
>