Theos-Talk Archives (June 1998 Message tt00032)

Thanks Dallas for your comments.  In a later
posting I will attempt to comment on a few of your
statements.

At this point I would like to simply say that
we need Ariadne's thread to rescue us from
the "Labyrinth" of conflicting testimony.
And I believe that Ariadne's thread in this
case is the thread of historical events.  HPB
wrote the Secret Doctrine. . . .one day at
a time. . . . a series of days, etc. . . .a series
of historical events.

This "chronological" key or thread can lead
to a better understanding of what *really*
happened regarding volume III of the SD.
I would ask you to please read my
paper titled "The Myth of the 'Missing'
Third Volume of The Secret Doctrine".
The 2nd edition of this paper is on the
WWW at:

http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/sdiiimyt.htm

Once you have read this paper then some of my
future comments may make more sense.

I suspect I know the possible source for
the reminiscences of the old student
from 1937-1939.

Will write more when I look up several
documents.

Daniel


W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:
>
> June 2nd 1998
>
> Dear Daniel:
>
> As usual your sources are impeccable.  In answer to your
> questions, allow me to present in more detail what I said.  Some
> of your questions may then be answered insofar as I am able.
>
> I am as puzzled as you are about the conflicting stories and my
> own  "reminiscences."  I narrated them as I was made aware of
> them.   I recognize the conflicts you write so accurately about.
>
> After comparing the "3rd and REVISED Edition(1893) of the (First
> 2 Volumes of S D)" with the original (1888), I have often
> wondered how many "changes" were introduced into those
> manuscripts that were assembled and printed as the "THIRD VOLUME
> OF THE S D " by Annie Besant in 1897.  Surmise again.
>
> >From HPB's original typed drafts, uncorrected for printing, to
> what we now have printed (as the THIRD VOLUME) -- how many
> changes that we know nothing about ?  Also, I bear in mind that
> as proofs came back from the printers for correction, HPB had the
> habit of adding and changing many phrases.  We lack those in this
> case.  This is of course entirely speculative on my part.
>
> As a matter of private speculation I have also wondered what
> would have happened had the "Judge Case" never arisen, and
> whether the "THIRD VOLUME S D" would have the same appearance had
> Judge collaborated with A B in its production.  But that is all
> unanswered conjecture.  At least we have the first 2 volumes SD
> in their original.
>
> Let me observe here that while it is very interesting to trace
> the many ways in which these books and writings have been
> handled, historically, we loose valuable time that could be spent
> in studying what Theosophy teaches.  I know that I do.
> Fortunately, starting from about 18, I began to make notes that I
> could go back to, even today, on what I read and studied.  But,
> one learns new things every day.  To me the philosophy is of more
> value than any amount of historicity.
>
> My reminiscence about the author of those statements concerning
> the fate, just before HPB's death, of the typed manuscripts
> destined for Volumes 3 and 4 of the S D is quite unclear.  Let me
> add that in Bombay, when I was a lad (from age 14 on) I lived in
> the same house as Mr. B. P. Wadia did and saw him almost daily.
> [ "Aryasangha,"  22 Narayan Dabholkar Rd., Bombay. ]  A stream of
> visitors of distinction, old Theosophists, etc., came by, and we
> were often invited to "come upstairs," meet them after dinner,
> and listen to what they had to say about the times when they knew
> and met HPB or Mr. Judge, and others of the Inner Group around
> HPB.  As I said I cannot now recall who said that, but the saying
> remains imprinted in my mind.  I cannot substantiate it with a
> name,  It might have been Alice Cleather, or old John Watkins, or
> someone else.
>
> As to Annie Besant having some of the manuscripts, it seems to me
> that several of those were published as articles in LUCIFER after
> HPB's death, as they were also being considered for use in the
> magazine.  I assume that A B had copies as co-editor, and may
> have taken some more from HPB's desk when she arrived in London
> very shortly after HPB's death ( A B was on ship-board on the
> Atlantic when HPB died, returning to London after visiting the
> Annual Convention of the American Section at the end of April in
> 1891, where, as HPB's representative, she delivered HPB's "last
> two messages" ) -- or something like that.  And those are just my
> surmises.
>
> As to the Wurzburg MSS, was that not what Countess Wachmeister
> copied of the early pages (the first draft of the S D) and sent
> to Adyar for Subba Row to edit or comment on ?  And is it not
> that which so upset S. Row that he refused to go any further.
>  see what HPB writes to Sinnett (p. 172 , HPB Letters to APS)
> about the revealing of certain ancient Mysteries, held sacred by
> Brahmin Initiates,  See also the restrictions under which HPB was
> placed, herself, on p. 103-6,of the same book ].  In MAHATMA
> LETTERS there are correlating references (to me) to be read on
> pp. 203, 263, 310-17 466 top concerning HPB's work and position
> vis-a-vis the Mahatmas.
>
> Well, I don't think this will settle much, but here goes.
>
> Best wishes,            Dallas.
>
> ============================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Daniel H Caldwell" <blafoun@azstarnet.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 8:33 AM
> Subject: More on SD Vol. 3
>
> >W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote on Theos-Talk:
> >
> >> In "The Negators of Science"  [ LUCIFER, April 1891,  Part 1,
> >> ULT Edition of HPB Articles, Vol. 2, p. 80-1) ]  HPB gives a
> >> survey of what was intended in Vol. 3.  [ HPB was evidently
> not
> >> able to complete this as she died May 8th, 1891, shortly after
> >> this article was issued. Because she foresaw this, is the
> >> probable reason, I think, for the destruction of the
> manuscripts
> >> making up the 3rd and part of the 4th Volumes of the S D -- as
> >> she could not edit them for publication. I was given to
> >> understand, many years ago by an old student of HPB, that very
> >> shortly before her death, she called in Archibald Keightley
> and
> >> G.R.S.Mead and asked where the manuscripts for the 3rd and 4th
> >> Volumes were.  They showed her a large pile all typed and
> ready.
> >> She then said that she had received "instructions" to have
> them
> >> destroyed. They all three set to work and tore them up. This
> is a
> >> reminiscence, and I have not been able to secure independent
> >> verification of this statement made to me.]
> >
> >Then a few paragraphs later Dallas wrote:
> >
> >>  Annie Besant, after Mr. Judge's death in 1896, issued in 1897
> a
> >> "Third Volume of the S D;"  and the material included there
> seems
> >> to be some of the unedited Manuscripts HPB was working on at
> the  time of her death.
> >
> >
> >Daniel Caldwell replies:
> >
> >Dallas, in the latter paragragh, you write of "some of the
> unedited
> >Manuscripts."  Which ones??  SD manuscripts?  The destroyed
> ones?  Dallas, please tell me what MSS you are speaking about?
>
> ==========================================
> DALLAS:
>
> SD manuscripts -- may have been several copies -- some with A B,
> and the est with A K and G R S M.  What happened to the hand
> written MSS ?
>
> ==========================================
> >
> >Dallas, reread what you just wrote concerning Archibald
> Keightley
> >and G.R.S. Mead.
> >
> >Then COMPARE that with what they ACTUALLY WROTE in the
> following:
> >
> >"October 29, 1891---Dr. Archibald Keightley wrote in a
> >letter to Bertram Keightley (cited by C. Jinarajadasa
> >in "Dr. Besant and Mutilation of the Secret Doctrine,"
> >Messenger, January 1926, 166):
> >
> >'There is some talk of entirely reprinting Secret Doctrine
> >[Volumes I and II] and of correcting errors
> >when the Third Volume is issued.' "
> >
> >Why would Archibald write this on Oct. 29, 1891,
> >if he knew firsthand that
> >HPB, Mead and he had already destroyed the Mss of
> >vol. III???!!!
> >
> ============================================
> DALLAS
>
> I do not know how to answer this, as I said there are too many
> blanks and surmises.
>
> ===========================================
>
> >Concerning Mead, Robert Gilbert writes the following
> >with a quote by Mead:
> >
> >"Many years later there were persistent allegations that the
> >   supposed third and fourth volumes had been suppressed by
> vested
> >   interests within the Society. The evidence for this was
> simply
> >   Madame Blavatsky's claims at various times to have completed,
> or
> >   nearly completed, the extra volumes - but no-one ever saw any
> >   finished text and none was ever found. Mead's comment on the
> >   allegations was uncompromising: 'On H.P.B.'s decease there
> >   remained over no manuscript or typescript S.D. material other
> >   than is now found in Vol. III. These pieces, or chapters,
> were
> >   omitted from the two volumes of the first edition, either
> >   because they were thought, by Mme. Blavatsky herself, not
> good
> >   enough or not sufficiently appropriate to be included.'
> >
> >Notice Mead's own words.  Mead's words contradict this
> >annoynmous story that HPB, Archibald K. and Mead had destroyed
> >the SD III MSS.
> >
> >Note:  In what was quoted above by Gilbert, he makes a statement
> >which is misleading:  ". . . no-one ever saw any finished text
> >and none was ever found. . . ."
> >
> >FINISHED text??  What does Gilbert mean by "finished"?  "No-one
> >every saw."  When?  Before HPB's death?  After her death?
>
> =========================================
> DALLAS:
>
> Another blank space -- surmises ?  Conflict of views.
>
> ===========================================
> >
> >COMPARE what Gilbert wrote with what Annie Besant testified to
> >on May 4, 1891:
> >
> >"There is one other work of hers [HPB's], which I have seen in
> >manuscript,
> >still unpublished; a third volume of "The Secret Doctrine" which
> is now
> >being got ready for the press under my own eyes."
> >
> >This is the manuscript HPB writes about in "The Negators of
> Science",
> >LUCIFER, April 1891.
> >
> >Was the manuscript "finished" or "completed" at this
> time-period?
> >
> ==============================================
> DALLAS
>
> Again -- a blank - a surmise situation -- conflict in views
>
> ========================================
>
> >Here is what I wrote in my paper concerning Boris de Zirkoff's
> comments
> >on
> >a "completed" SD Vol III manuscript:
> >
> >". . . . it is difficult to understand what Boris
> >de Zirkoff meant when he wrote (in SD Intro., 71)
> >that 'no outright positive or negative answer can be made to
> >the oft-repeated question whether a completed Manuscript
> >of Volumes III and IV ever existed.' "
> >
> >"Setting aside de Zirkoff's reference to Volume IV, there
> >is no reason to doubt that a manuscript of Volume III existed
> >during the last years of HPB's life. Furthermore, had she
> >lived, HPB would probably have added and deleted material
> >from the manuscript; she would probably have rewritten
> >and reedited the material even more. But at the time of her
> >death, this manuscript was as 'complete' as HPB could make it.
> >What more could be expected?"
> >
> >And Annie Besant testifies BEFORE HPB'S DEATH that she had
> >SEEN this manuscript.
> >
> >Does anyone ever consult and compare original sources of
> information?
> >
> >Dallas, who was this "old student of HPB"?  Who told him/her
> this
> >story about HPB, Keightley and Mead destroying the MSS of Volume
> III SD?  Was it HPB or Keightley or Mead who told him/her the
> story?  Did he/she  get the story 2nd hand or even 3rd hand?
> >
> =============================================
> DALLAS :
>
> >From the way in which it was related to us, it appeared to me to
> be most probably "2nd hand"  -- but it was also apparently well
> known in the "household" around HPB.  Or so I gathered.  I do not
> recall that any questions as to authenticity were made.  Time of
> event I would place between 1937 / 1939, before W W II.
>
> ============================================
>
> >I prefer to consult the original source materials of which we
> have
> >an abundance INCLUDING THE ORIGINAL WURZBURG MSS.  The contents
> of the
> >Wurzburg mss should be compared with the contents of Vol III.
> >
> >See my article on third volume of SD at
> >http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/sdiiimyt.htm  for more
> details.
> >
> ==================================================
>
>