Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00393)

K. Paul Johnson wrote:

> Interesting post, Daniel, about all the Shugden controversy.  I
> would suggest that if a demonic being is the one telling Gelugpas
> to shun and hate Dugpas, i.e. if the Dalai Lama is right, then
> HPB's attitude toward Dugpas is demonic.  OTOH, if HPB is right
> in presenting Dugpas as objects of horror and loathing, then the
> Dalai Lama is wrong and his opponents right.


Daniel replies:

Thanks Paul for your comments.  But I don't really understand
your reasoning in the two alternatives you give above.  Also
I think there are other alternatives that you did not consider.


K. Paul Johnson wrote:

> You say you are "dismayed" at my admission of limited knowledge
> of Tibetan Buddhism.  I don't believe that for one second; you
> are evidently *delighted* to find another pretext to proclaim
> your superiority in matters related to Theosophical history.
> But you misread what I said, since I was speaking in the present;
> of course I knew that there had been centuries of bloody struggles
> between various factions in Tibetan Buddhism.  What I did not know,
> and what I had been explicitly told was untrue by people with greater
> knowledge than you or I have of the field, is that Gelugpa hatred of Dugpas
> was a continuing feature of Tibetan Buddhism into the 20th
> century.  So, they were wrong in this.


Daniel replies:

No, I wasn't delighted; simply dismayed.  And I based my statement
upon what you had previously written, i.e.:

>My basis for
> saying that "the Gelugpa simply don't view the red hat sects as a
> band of evil magicians" is the testimony of two Western initiates
> into Tibetan Buddhism.  But both of them learned their view from
> the Dalai Lama, who clearly does not accept such a
> characterization.  However, the Shugden people's attitude is the
> first glimpse I've seen of a historical basis for where HPB might
> have gotten her own portrayal of "dugpas."  And thus strengthens
> the case for some personal acquaintance with Tibetan Buddhism.

Notice the words:  ". . . the FIRST glimpse I've seen of a HISTORICAL
basis for where HPB might have gotten her own portrayal of 'dugpas'."

These words of yours indicated to me that you were speaking not only of
the
present but also of the past.  Especially since you mentioned HPB and
she
has been dead for more than 100 years.  But thanks for the
clarification.


K. Paul Johnson wrote:

>But as far as HPB's credibility on
> the subject is concerned, her making Dugpas a worldwide conspiracy of evil
> black magicians is still a distortion of what a minority of Gelugpas believe,
> not a straight presentation of the Shugdenites' position.

Daniel replies:

My understanding is that HPB and her Masters used the word "dugpa" in a
generic
sense.  For example, speaking of dugpas even in the Vatican.  Of course,
some theosophists can't believe that there are really "black" magicians
or that there might even exist a "fraternity" of such "dugpas."

I certainly would prefer not to believe in "dugpas" and certainly
not in an organized group of them, but is it so farfetched?  We have
organized gangs & networks of criminals all over the world.
Is it so farfetched to believe that there may be "highly developed"
persons who
employ their "powers" in "negative" and "evil" ways? And that some of
them
do so in a concerted, organized manner?

Of course, I realize I'm probably considered naive by some
because I believe that there might be an organized group or society of
"white"
magicians.  But where did Ooton Liatto and his brother adept come from?
Where
did they go?  Olcott reported that in 1881 Hilarion was in Bombay on his
way
to Tibet.  This and similar evidence indicates to many Theosophical
students
that there was an organized network or group or society of Masters
connected with
HPB's work.


Again thanks, Paul, for your comments.