Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00281)

>
> I wouldn't blindly agree with that. That idea is a Theosophical myth. It
> doesn't excuse us from having to build our own bridge and experience the
> mystery of identity for ourselves. Neither does it mean that "Seers"
> (whoever they are) relay experiential data free from the filter of
> personality. Always reading "about" something keeps it ever away from
> you.
>
> > "their own transcendental nature" sounds good, but folk
> > with quite opposing views claim those views are from their own
> > transcendental natures, views which can't both be "right."
>
> Why do you expect them to be? We can't agree about much and even when we
> do, it doesn't mean that our views are identical. The trick is to get to
> the place where its OK to accept and acknowledge the tensions of
> contradiction. It's yin and yang, as they say.
>
> > HPB does write
> > about our evil genius.  This to us might well come over as our
> > transcendental nature.
> > It is understandable that a dugpa would want to please us, pat us on the
> > back, win us over, and offer an environment where people are nicer.  A
> > Master will tell us the truth, and that we might well not like.
> > The Seers, are always checking, comparing what they see, and re-checking,
> > and aren't it seems prepared to just except their transcendental natures.
>
> It must be difficult to live in such fear.
>
> Your attitude suggests that you might be willing to give up your ability
> to critically think, trust your own nature, and actually experience what
> is within you, in favor of someone else's authority, experience and a
> whole bunch of paper glued together. You're ripe for a fall.
>
> Fear and doubt go hand in hand with independant action. If you're
> looking for safety outside yourself, it just means that you don't really
> trust what is within in you. Keep looking.
>
> Mark
> - --------
> WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space
> http://www.withoutwalls.com
> E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Pam Giese" <pgiese@snd.softfarm.com>
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:23:24 -0500
> Subject: Re: Second death
>
> > From: "Clare Povers" <povers@enterprise.net>
> > Can it also refer to death to the self and the realisation of the
> > next stage as vital to work for NOW in the earth bound state?
> > Not a joke but a very real and interesting progression.
> > Lots of printed information available.see also Christian mystic
> > books.
> >
> > Time over life experience: childhood into adolescence but
> > how many die to the desires of the late teens to develop into adult
> > hood? and sustain that stage. (death as passing from one stage to
> > another.)
>
> Then is there a difference between "Second Death" and mystical Christian
> teaching of "Second Birth" or Rebirth?
>
> Rebirth(in the mystical, not popular sense)  is not an intellectual
> revelation, but a "death" of the personality and ego followed by an
> awakened awareness of unity with god. Jerry phrased this very well in his
> response.  To borrow another Christian metaphor, the time spent in second
> death is sometimes called "the dark night of the soul" --that time of
> absence and abandonment where previous pleasure and contentment are
> remembered as only illusionary and meaningless.  One can spend a lifetime
> in the bardo-like death state, clinging on the meaningless actions and
> outer shells.  Or one can let the final threads of the old self fall away
> and allow a new birth to take place.  With new birth comes the a new
> awareness of love and oneness with the absolute.
>
>
> Pam
> pgiese@snd.softfarm.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "K Paul Johnson" <pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu>
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:56:23 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Answers from The Key for Bart and Wes
>
> Last night before bed I was contemplating the discussion here
> yesterday and decided The Key to Theosophy was the most likely
> place to find succinct passages from HPB that relate to the
> subjects at hand.  I opened it and went to the section on "The
> Abstract and the Concrete" and found these words:
>
> (re: Wes and the ancient wisdom)
> Theosophy, in its abstract meaning, is Divine Wisdom, or the
> aggregate of the knowledge and wisdom which underlie the
> Universe-- the homogeneity of eternal GOOD; and in its concrete
> sense it is the sum total of the same as allotted to man by
> nature, on this earth, and no more...The Society can be regarded
> as the embodiment of Theosophy only in its abstract motives; it
> can never presume to call itself its concrete vehicle so long as
> human imperfections and weaknesses are represented in its body;
> otherwise the Society would be only repeating the great error and
> the outflowing sacrileges of the so-called Churches of Christ.  I
> Eastern comparisons may be permitted, Theosophy is the shoreless
> ocean of universal truth, love, and wisdom, reflecting its
> radiance on the earth, while the Theosophical Society is only a
> visible bubble on that reflection.  Theosophy is divine nature,
> visible and invisible, and its Society human nature trying to
> ascent to its divine parent.  Theosophy, finally, is the fixed
> eternal sun, and its Society the evanescent comet trying to
> settle in an orbit to become a planet, every revolving within the
> attraction of the sun of truth.  It was formed to assist in
> showing to men that such a thing as Theosophy exists, and to help
> them ascend towards it by studying and assimilating its eternal
> verities.(pp. 56-57)
>
> PJ-- I might suggest here that for "Theosophical Society" one now
> read "all Theosophical organizations, all the books they publish,
> all the doctrines they teach" and I think you will get to the
> heart of what I was trying to convey yesterday about questioning
> HPB being entirely kosher and indeed what she would have us do.
>
> Right after that is this answer to Bart:
>
> ENQ.  I thought you said you had no tenets or doctrines of your
> own?
> THEO.  No more we have.  The Society has no wisdom of its own to
> support or teach.  It is simply the storehouse of all the truths
> uttered by the great seers, initiates, and prophets of historic
> and even pre-historic ages; at least, as many as it can get.
> Therefore, it is merely the channel through which more or less of
> truth, found in the accumulated utterances of humanity's great
> teachers, is poured out into the world.
>
> Last night I had a dream related to these passages which I will
> report separately.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "K Paul Johnson" <pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu>
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:56:23 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Answers from The Key for Bart and Wes
>
> Last night before bed I was contemplating the discussion here
> yesterday and decided The Key to Theosophy was the most likely
> place to find succinct passages from HPB that relate to the
> subjects at hand.  I opened it and went to the section on "The
> Abstract and the Concrete" and found these words:
>
> (re: Wes and the ancient wisdom)
> Theosophy, in its abstract meaning, is Divine Wisdom, or the
> aggregate of the knowledge and wisdom which underlie the
> Universe-- the homogeneity of eternal GOOD; and in its concrete
> sense it is the sum total of the same as allotted to man by
> nature, on this earth, and no more...The Society can be regarded
> as the embodiment of Theosophy only in its abstract motives; it
> can never presume to call itself its concrete vehicle so long as
> human imperfections and weaknesses are represented in its body;
> otherwise the Society would be only repeating the great error and
> the outflowing sacrileges of the so-called Churches of Christ.  I
> Eastern comparisons may be permitted, Theosophy is the shoreless
> ocean of universal truth, love, and wisdom, reflecting its
> radiance on the earth, while the Theosophical Society is only a
> visible bubble on that reflection.  Theosophy is divine nature,
> visible and invisible, and its Society human nature trying to
> ascent to its divine parent.  Theosophy, finally, is the fixed
> eternal sun, and its Society the evanescent comet trying to
> settle in an orbit to become a planet, every revolving within the
> attraction of the sun of truth.  It was formed to assist in
> showing to men that such a thing as Theosophy exists, and to help
> them ascend towards it by studying and assimilating its eternal
> verities.(pp. 56-57)
>
> PJ-- I might suggest here that for "Theosophical Society" one now
> read "all Theosophical organizations, all the books they publish,
> all the doctrines they teach" and I think you will get to the
> heart of what I was trying to convey yesterday about questioning
> HPB being entirely kosher and indeed what she would have us do.
>
> Right after that is this answer to Bart:
>
> ENQ.  I thought you said you had no tenets or doctrines of your
> own?
> THEO.  No more we have.  The Society has no wisdom of its own to
> support or teach.  It is simply the storehouse of all the truths
> uttered by the great seers, initiates, and prophets of historic
> and even pre-historic ages; at least, as many as it can get.
> Therefore, it is merely the channel through which more or less of
> truth, found in the accumulated utterances of humanity's great
> teachers, is poured out into the world.
>
> Last night I had a dream related to these passages which I will
> report separately.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "K Paul Johnson" <pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu>
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:16:47 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Theosophical California Dreamin'
>
> So, here's the dream I had last night after reading those
> passages (well afterwards, actually this morning shortly before
> arising):
>
> I'm at the TS Pasadena Headquarters attending some conference.
> Lots of people are milling around on the grounds, which are
> extensive and lovely, an oasis of (15-20?) acres of gardens in
> the midst of suburbia.  Well-tended and sylvan, but you can never
> quite get out of sight of TS buildings or the streets that
> surround the property.  I'm chatting with a few friends, but say
> "I want to go for a walk, catch up with you later" and head into
> the gardens.  Somehow (dreams are always vague on how these
> transformations occur) I find myself in a meadow in a valley amid
> high mountains, all contained within the TS property.  After
> hiking a few minutes admiring the scenery, I cross a ridge and am
> awestruck by a magnificent waterfall cascading down a
> mountainside.  Maybe not as tall as Yosemite or as wide as
> Niagara, but hugely impressive, with several smaller waterfalls
> on other ridges in sight.  I stand here soaking up the vibes, all
> alone in this natural paradise, until satisfied that it's time to
> return to the conference.  So I walk back the way I came, and in
> minutes am back with my friends.  I wonder why no one else has
> talked about this amazing place within the grounds, but feel
> disinclined to talk about it.
> END OF DREAM
>
> Anyone else's interpretations are hereby invited, but what I get
> out of this is that it relates to the difference between
> Theosophy and "Theosophy."  Between the natural, wild, and
> solitary contact with the divine ineffable, and the manmade world of
> Theosophical conferences and books.  By participating in the
> latter, one can be situated so as to experience the former.  But
> they're whole different levels of reality.
>
> To think that the TS "owned" that waterfall would be like
> thinking that the material in HPB's books *is* the eternal
> wisdom, rather than a fragmentary and dim reflection thereof,
> which can lead us in its direction but never encompass or contain
> it.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of theos-talk-digest V1 #124
> ********************************
>
>