Theos-Talk Archives (April 1998 Message tt00343)

Thoa Tran wrote:
>
> No, free will makes it possible to use ones powers to
> sabotage the plan. I am afraid that is what happened in this case.
>
> The arrogance of free will makes it think that it actually has free will.
> Choices are inherent in the System. The only thing that could possibly be
> sabotaged is the lower system. We are relatively free but not absolutely
> free.

Perhaps I believe that we are more free than you do. I believe we can extinguish
the evolving part of ourselves by consistantly making the wrong choices.

> How would turning against the Guru-Chela relationship destroy anything,
> except the idea of the Guru-Chela relationship?

It can turn people away from the path for a mighty long time, yes, even possibly
forever, if you consider the possibility of the "second death".

> The problem that arises is
> when the Guru, due to personal ego, thinks that the Chela is actually
> worshipping the Guru, and either abuses the relationship or would not give
> the Chela back his/her entrusted inner being.

Well, that certainly is a problem when it occurs.

> Why would anyone want to
> lose the adoration and support by telling the supporter that s/he is strong
> enough to go off on his/her own?

But this is exactly what "good" Gurus have done for thousands of years.

> Yes, Krisnamurti may be dualistic when he denies the Guruship that taught
> him all that he knew.

I see a deep seated psychological problem in him here. Some have suggested that
the turning point came when he lost his dearest friend - Nitya. He had totally
believed that the "Masters" would save him, but they didn't. Well, they turned
their back on him (K) so he is turning his back on them.

> However, his refusal to tell the solution reflects
> his idea of the uselessness of describing what cannot be described, and
> that the only useful thing is to live the life, to be, instead of getting
> caught in the concept. That is why his teachings are full of suggestions
> on "being." Now, how would that ruin anything?

It depends on where K is coming from. If he comes from the wrong place it could
ruin >
> Note this statement: All you can do is prepare the intellect: the impulse
> toward "soul-culture" must be furnished by the individual."
>
> Isn't that exactly what Krisnamurti is doing?

You mean he is preparing the intellect? For what? Soul-culture? He is preparing
it for subtle rebellion, in my oinion.

> For myself, I read what he said, and I also go
> beyond that by finding out more from within and without.

It seems to me you are doing quite good. But I wouldn't give K the credit for it
:-)

> I exercise daily and type 70 wpm. :o)

What else can you tell me about yourself?

> Thoa said:
> >>>> For some others,
> >>>>however, it was highly fulfilling, or else he would not have followers.

> Bjorn said:
> >> >There are many pretty strange gurus and leaders who have plenty of
> >>followers,
> >> >all the way to a Hitler and other Black magicians. Many of their followers
> >> >would
> >> >say that being such is "highly fulfilling", so that does not prove too much.

> Thoa said:
> >> Well, what does Doss have to say about being compared to followers of
> >> Hitler and Black magicians??? :o)

Please look again. I did not say that K was like Hitler, etc. I just pointed out
that your argument for the credibility of K, that many of his followers find his
teachings "highly fulfilling" really doesn't say much, if anything. Any crazy
guru out there will have "highly fulfilled" followers, if you ask them. SO what
does it prove?

> >> The God is our creative self, our divine self.
> >
> >Aha! Now, is that YOU or K saying that? If it is K, I *really* would like
> >to read some passages where he makes comments of that kind.
>
> It is I saying that. K inferred it by his teachings that pointed to the
> trust in our divine self.

But did he say that? Did he talk about trusting your divine self? Or have you
concluded that that was what he meant?

> This means that we all have within ourselves the flame of Truth. It is up
> to each of us to reflect on and sort out the truth from the false. The
> Stanza, the sacred ancient text, is already telling us where to find the
> truth. Any student of t/Theosophy and Krisnamurti should be able to
> combine both teachings and understand what this means.

Combining both would be a lot better than following K only.

--
Bjorn