Theos-Talk Archives (April 1998 Message tt00338)

April 17th 1998

Dear Thoa:O

In answer to your comments on my observations about Karma, Chaos,
etc. May I make the following notes ?

>From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" <thoalight@aol.com>
>Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 5:41 PM
>Subject: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA

>Dallas:
>>CHAOS:

>We could also say that all of our behavior, from rock, etc., has
been
>organized by the whole of cosmos. When we scrutinize something
within its limited area, its movement appears chaotic and
random. When we look at it from a greater whole, we see that it
is organized according to the greater whole. Our life and causes
appear random. Yet, when you look at it from the point of view
of the cosmos, there is purpose to the in-breath and out-breath
that all life is part of. In this way, Karma makes sense.
Everything is interconnected. Every action was the result of
countless influences, and itself will be an influence,
actions from matter smaller than the electron to actions greater than the
universe. This also includes action that is implicit in space.
Space and matter are all part of the great water. We are the
drops that form the circle of waves that eventually disappears
into the calmness of the liquid space. Viewed from this way,
chaos and randomness is only a subset of the orderliness of all
that IS. Mathematically, physicists have calculated that any
small area of space has more energy than the energy of all matter
put together. Thoa
=====================================

BEAUTIFULLY PUT. Only problem is that in human consciousness
resides the power to perceive all this and to make sense out of
chaos, etc... not really a problem, but because our Consciousness
is one with the WHOLE, its separation is only an apppearance.

Why should this be ?

Is it not so that those aspects of LIFE which are seemingly
isolated may become Concious of the WHOLE. The "independence"
does not relax into insensitiveness, but rather galvanizes itself
into a dynamic interaction with all other beings surrounding it,
and also with the WHOLE. There is no "loss" but always a gain in
depths and range of perception and understanding of the grand
purpose of all living.

Not static, but always dynamic and progressive. Dal.

======================================
>>You may fly, physically, to Los Angeles where I live, but only
a
>>person detached from both of us would see the motion and the
>>relativity of our physical positions as they change.
>
>And what about the person watching the person detached from both
of you, and on and on? The action of you and the other person is
dependent on the observer, and the action and position of the
observer, whether the observer is traveling at your speed, or the
other person's speed, etc. There is no such thing as the
objective world within our scope. Only regarding "Parent Space"
could we consider objectivity.

 Thoa
==========================================

I would not say that the existence of any being depends on the
observation of others, since, whether observed or not by
"others," they ARE.

But when one considers that all beings are inter-observant, and
that they view the rest as extensions of themselves - or as
similarities, then understanding and trust in the great Law of
ALL BEING becomes a matter of experience and of reliance.

What is wrong with a great and an eternal background of LAW ? I
mean as a concept. How else could a Universe operate except on
the reliability, the impartiality, and the ever-presence of an
infinitely sensitive 'host' of intelligent beings of various
grades, each working with and for others in the environment where
they are.

 [ In our own physical bodies, as an example, we have the
constant exchange of life-atoms, molecules, and these build the
cells and other organs of the body, but processes and laws of
their own, all prettty well regulated under the supervision of
some aspect of our physical life control, which we, as conscious
tennants in those bodies know on the whole very little about.
Our Medical science is constantly examining and building on the
knowledge that they acquire with the experience of disease vs.
health. If one wishes to exend this idea further, then what
about the realm of sensations, of desires and needs, and then of
thoughts, ambitions, aspirations and intuitions ? I think each
of these departments of "myself" is a whole continent to be
explored and understood, and we stand on the "coast-line," so to
say. Pioneers like the great Buddha, Jesus, Plato, Pythagoras,
Lao Tsu, Tsong Kha Pa, Shankaracharya and Krishna, etc... great
adepts and sages have already adventured into that "terra
incognita" and there they have found some of the laws, rules and
regulations that are already in place, working there and here,
and which they leave a record of us, for us to use. Dal. ]

I think that human consciousness is the result of innumerable
experiences as a unit of consiousness ( a "Ray" if you like)
which exists along with all other "rays" within the ONE GREAT
LIGHT -- and that it (and we) have been through all the
experiences of the mineral, vegetable, animal realsms, and are
now experiencing the indepedence/interdependence of the human
state of self-consciousness. I also think that for us, as a
generality, our consciousness is changing gradually from one of
isolation ( Me, only) to a recognition that we cnnot "escape"
each other. And there fore the laws and rules of communal
existence are to be learned, with love and tolerance at the
foremost. DAl

========================================

><snip>
>>Theosophy introduces the concept that universal Law (Karma)
>>operates on the moral plane (which is not defined, though the
>>legislation efforts of most countries try to make those tenets
of
>>behavior and fairness between persons precise, and, usually
>>fail).

Does Karma have to operate on a moral plane? Could Karma be
viewed as IS, as interconnectedness of the flow of the ocean?

 Thoa
========================================

You may so view it from your perspective. For me, the idea of
eternal LAW which periodically causes (as the CAUSELESS CAUSE
within the ABSOLUTENESS -- as the "Eternal Background" --) the
many manifestations, one of which, the one in which we are now
conscious, is our Universe. How can there be any real "Chaos ?"
There are many ares we do not understand. Yes. And to us they
seem at present to be chaos. But fundamentally if they exist,
they only exist because of their relationships (however difficult
to make precise).

Is it not interesting that we all instinctively look for LAW in
everything, and that this is the basis of all scientific advance
in whatever field -- the honest and reliable repetition of
similar phenomena ? Nature does not play favorites !
Dal

==========================================

>I don't think it is ultimately Chaos. It could not be. Chaos
is only a
>subset of the order that ultimately IS. It really doesn't
matter whether
>we make sense of any of this, because it will always BE. I
think it is our own personal ego that needs to make sense of it
all. For me, the knowledge that my action influences countless
actions is enough for
>self-responsibility. We feel pleasure and pain. We know others
feel
>pleasure and pain. We know that bad actions will affect someone
or
>something. We also know that bad actions may come back to us.
If we abuse our children, our children may grow up to abuse
others. If there are enough unloved children in a nation, then
it could be a nation of crime and abuse. If the world is full of
insensitive and abusive people, the population may eventually
annihilate itself through war and destruction. If we somehow
blow up the earth, that will disturb the balance of our galaxy,
and on and on.

=====================================

Well said, and I agree on the whole, but as I said above we
cannot get rid of three "certainties"

 1. WE exist -- whatever we are and however we or
others may
 define us.

 2. THE UNIVERSE -- all the beings of every type
and kind
 also exist. We cannot do away with
them.

 3. THERE IS AN INTERACTION BETWEEN US and THEM.

The 4th sine qua non is that thes interactions respolve
themselves into repetitious similarities, although they are quite
different, and like the snow-flake or the individual drops of
water, none of them are exact duplicates of any other. So there
is a kind of "law of mass action" which always operates between
members of the same host of beings as well as between adjacent
and rmote "hosts." and with individuals, wherever situated.

Karma is in general an expression of this great interlocking set
of laws which are. essientially cooperative, brotherly, tolerant
and life-giving.

Best wishes as always, Dallas